[Lazarus] the new menu "source"

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[Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Martin Frb
I mentioned some of this before, but I did so along with many other
points, and the other points where more like  ideas and not so important.

At the moment, a few of the menu items (of those that did get moved) are
definitely misplaced.

A source menu suggests that items in there are either specific actions
*only* available to source (implies pascal, since Lazarus is a pascal
IDE); or at the very least items that have very little exceptions from
this "only" rule.

Items that are correct in the source menu:
- comment/uncomment/toggle comment
- insert ifdef
- insert todo
- message composer (isn't that actually a tool?)

items that one could get away with:
-"insert ... license". Though some licenses may apply to none source
too? (I haven't checked)
same for insert...cvs  => any file can be in cvs

Items that definitely do not belong there:
- insert from char map
- upper/lower selection
- tabs to spaces / spaces to tab
- indent selection (this does no source specific indent, the indent
works the same for all kind of files)
- break lines
- sort selection (Imho rather unlikely on source, far more likely on
data like ini files...)

For those last items I can find absolutely nothing, that connects them
with "source"


Martin



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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Juha Manninen
Martin kirjoitti perjantai 11 maaliskuu 2011 23:24:31:
> [...]
> Items that definitely do not belong there:
> - insert from char map

Yes, first I thought that all the "Insert ..." items should be in one place but
actually they could be split. I will look at it.

> - upper/lower selection
> - tabs to spaces / spaces to tab
> - indent selection (this does no source specific indent, the indent
> works the same for all kind of files)
> - break lines
> - sort selection (Imho rather unlikely on source, far more likely on
> data like ini files...)
>
> For those last items I can find absolutely nothing, that connects them
> with "source"

Please update to a newer trunk version.
They have been in Edit menu already for some days.

Message Composer actually inserts the composed message to source.
It belongs to Source menu quite naturally.

I was thinking if JEDI code format belongs there because it has many sub-
items. It is only affecting the source though.


Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Martin Frb
On 12/03/2011 00:21, Juha Manninen wrote:
> Martin kirjoitti perjantai 11 maaliskuu 2011 23:24:31:
>> [...]
>> Items that definitely do not belong there:
>> - insert from char map
> Yes, first I thought that all the "Insert ..." items should be in one place but
> actually they could be split. I will look at it.
The insert ones aren't to much trouble (though char map, should move back).

>> - upper/lower selection
>> - tabs to spaces / spaces to tab
>> - indent selection (this does no source specific indent, the indent
>> works the same for all kind of files)

I'd still say indent should go back, but not a big issue.
> Please update to a newer trunk version.
> They have been in Edit menu already for some days.
My apologies... I thought I had, but either I updated the wrong
directory, or something else failed....

Yeah much better now

> Message Composer actually inserts the composed message to source.
> It belongs to Source menu quite naturally.
with jcf moved, yes.

> I was thinking if JEDI code format belongs there because it has many sub-
> items. It is only affecting the source though.
>
+1


Great work.

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Juha Manninen
Martin kirjoitti lauantai 12 maaliskuu 2011 03:06:48:
> I'd still say indent should go back, but not a big issue.

I moved items in main menu some more.
I also added Source sub-menu to the editor's popup menu and reorganized the
items as in main menu. IMO It is quite good now.

Delphi 2009 has about the same number of menu items as Lazarus now.
The biggest difference is now the Source menu which Delphi doesn't have.
Source menu is implemented by some other IDEs and was suggested for Lazarus by
Mattias. It seems to be a useful menu, although often it is difficult to tell if
an item belongs to Edit, Source or Refactor menu.

Eclipse has Source menu but otherwise I would not follow many or their
inventions. For example they have Run -> External Tools. It is logical somehow
but not intuitive. It takes time to find it.
Then they have Window -> Preferences. Why Window?
Some of their GUI design looks odd and shows it is made by different people
with different ideas. That is a problem with any open source project of course.


Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Juha Manninen
In reply to this post by Martin Frb
And BTW, shortcuts combined of two sequencial keys like "Ctrl+K, L" show now
properly in menu caption.
At least Edit and Source menus have some.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Martin Frb
In reply to this post by Juha Manninen
On 16/03/2011 10:56, Juha Manninen wrote:
> Martin kirjoitti lauantai 12 maaliskuu 2011 03:06:48:
>> I'd still say indent should go back, but not a big issue.
> I moved items in main menu some more.
> I also added Source sub-menu to the editor's popup menu and reorganized the
> items as in main menu. IMO It is quite good now.
looks great,

minor ideas:

I would change some ordering. e.g

Indent/unindent block: currently come after upper/lowercase sleection. I
would move them to the top of that particular menu-section. That is
   ...
   ------
    Indent selection
    Unindent selection
    Uppercase Selection
   ....

I believe there are more often used (and more often looked for) than the
upper/lower entries. So they should be first. And also items right after
the divider, are more outstanding, easier to find.

just my 2 cents (another 2 cents from me)

Martin




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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Jesus Reyes A.
In reply to this post by Juha Manninen


--- El mié 16-mar-11, Juha Manninen <[hidden email]> escribió:

> De: Juha Manninen <[hidden email]>
> Asunto: Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"
> A: "Lazarus mailing list" <[hidden email]>
> Fecha: miércoles, 16 de marzo de 2011, 4:56
> Martin kirjoitti lauantai 12
> maaliskuu 2011 03:06:48:
> > I'd still say indent should go back, but not a big
> issue.
>
> I moved items in main menu some more.
> I also added Source sub-menu to the editor's popup menu and
> reorganized the
> items as in main menu. IMO It is quite good now.
>
> Delphi 2009 has about the same number of menu items as
> Lazarus now.
> The biggest difference is now the Source menu which Delphi
> doesn't have.
> Source menu is implemented by some other IDEs and was
> suggested for Lazarus by
> Mattias. It seems to be a useful menu, although often it is
> difficult to tell if
> an item belongs to Edit, Source or Refactor menu.

Having "source" and "refactor" menus is IMO too much, why not insert Refactor menu as a submenu of Source menu.

Taking a look at the sub-menus refactor menu offer, most useful actions are the first three, which can be invoked by shortcut (and that is probably what everybody does while editing the code). So why it needs such prominent place in Main menu?

Another drawback is that refactor translates to refactorización in spanish, too long word and when you don't have a wide monitor or simply don't want IDE main form maximized, every pixel counts.

>
> Eclipse has Source menu but otherwise I would not follow
> many or their
> inventions. For example they have Run -> External Tools.
> It is logical somehow
> but not intuitive. It takes time to find it.
> Then they have Window -> Preferences. Why Window?
> Some of their GUI design looks odd and shows it is made by
> different people
> with different ideas. That is a problem with any open
> source project of course.
>

Jesus Reyes A.


     

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Žilvinas Ledas
Hello all,


On 2011-03-16 21:02, Jesus Reyes wrote:

> --- El mié 16-mar-11, Juha Manninen<[hidden email]>  escribió:
>> De: Juha Manninen<[hidden email]>
>>
>>> I'd still say indent should go back, but not a big
>> issue.
>>
>> I moved items in main menu some more.
>> I also added Source sub-menu to the editor's popup menu and
>> reorganized the
>> items as in main menu. IMO It is quite good now.
>>
>> Delphi 2009 has about the same number of menu items as
>> Lazarus now.
>> The biggest difference is now the Source menu which Delphi
>> doesn't have.
>> Source menu is implemented by some other IDEs and was
>> suggested for Lazarus by
>> Mattias. It seems to be a useful menu, although often it is
>> difficult to tell if
>> an item belongs to Edit, Source or Refactor menu.
> Having "source" and "refactor" menus is IMO too much, why not insert Refactor menu as a submenu of Source menu.
I second that.

And another observation - wouldn't it be better to have simpler shortcut
for "Rename identifier"? e. g. MonoDevelop uses F2 (as Windows uses it
to rename a file).


Regards
Žilvinas

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Juha Manninen
Žilvinas Ledas kirjoitti keskiviikko 16 maaliskuu 2011 22:29:14:
> Hello all,
>
> On 2011-03-16 21:02, Jesus Reyes wrote:
[..]
> > Having "source" and "refactor" menus is IMO too much, why not insert
> > Refactor menu as a submenu of Source menu.
>
> I second that.

The idea is to have more refactor items in the future. Then it makes more
sense to have a menu for it.

The length of main menu can be a problem with translated caption texts because
there are so many items now.
At least Environment menu will be merged with Tools menu when the remaining
setting dialogs are integrated to Options dialog. It helps a bit.


> And another observation - wouldn't it be better to have simpler shortcut
> for "Rename identifier"? e. g. MonoDevelop uses F2 (as Windows uses it
> to rename a file).

Good idea. Delphi uses Ctrl-Shift-E. Does it use F2 for anything?
Lazarus ClassicScheme mapping has F2 for Save file but ClassicScheme is not
used. The default mapping had F2 free so I assigned it to "Rename identifier"
as an alternative shortcut. Both work now.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Žilvinas Ledas
On 2011-03-16 23:26, Juha Manninen wrote:
The idea is to have more refactor items in the future. Then it makes more
sense to have a menu for it.

The length of main menu can be a problem with translated caption texts because 
there are so many items now.
At least Environment menu will be merged with Tools menu when the remaining 
setting dialogs are integrated to Options dialog. It helps a bit.

Ok, I understand. It as a WIP ;)
Either way - these menu rearrangements are good!

And another observation - wouldn't it be better to have simpler shortcut
for "Rename identifier"? e. g. MonoDevelop uses F2 (as Windows uses it
to rename a file).
Good idea. Delphi uses Ctrl-Shift-E. Does it use F2 for anything?
Sorry, can't help you with that. I do not use Delphi for a few years now.
Lazarus ClassicScheme mapping has F2 for Save file but ClassicScheme is not 
used. The default mapping had F2 free so I assigned it to "Rename identifier" 
as an alternative shortcut. Both work now.
Great, thanks!


Regards
Žilvinas

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

William Oliveira Ferreira
In reply to this post by Juha Manninen
On Turbo Delphi (Borland Developer Studio 2006 Free) only works if you select a file on project manager, renaming it.
________________________________
William de Oliveira Ferreira
Bacharel em Sistemas de Informação


Good idea. Delphi uses Ctrl-Shift-E. Does it use F2 for anything?
Lazarus ClassicScheme mapping has F2 for Save file but ClassicScheme is not
used. The default mapping had F2 free so I assigned it to "Rename identifier"
as an alternative shortcut. Both work now.

Juha


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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by Žilvinas Ledas
Op 2011-03-16 22:29, Žilvinas Ledas het geskryf:
>
> And another observation - wouldn't it be better to have simpler shortcut
> for "Rename identifier"? e. g. MonoDevelop uses F2 (as Windows uses it
> to rename a file).

Brilliant idea! I use shortcuts extensively, but for some reason could
never remember the default one for "rename identifier". So I used
Shift+F6 - the same shortcut as in Total Commander (also a tool I use
often, even under Linux) for renaming files.

F2 is even better. :)

Now only if I can find the time to complete my IDE add-on that allows
you to print out your keyboard shortcuts as a reference card.


Regards,
   - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

zeljko
On Thursday 17 of March 2011 08:02:16 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> Op 2011-03-16 22:29, Žilvinas Ledas het geskryf:
> > And another observation - wouldn't it be better to have simpler shortcut
> > for "Rename identifier"? e. g. MonoDevelop uses F2 (as Windows uses it
> > to rename a file).
>
> Brilliant idea! I use shortcuts extensively, but for some reason could
> never remember the default one for "rename identifier". So I used
> Shift+F6 - the same shortcut as in Total Commander (also a tool I use
> often, even under Linux) for renaming files.
>
> F2 is even better. :)
>
> Now only if I can find the time to complete my IDE add-on that allows
> you to print out your keyboard shortcuts as a reference card.

Yes, that would be nice thing to have.

zeljko

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Alexander Klenin
On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 17:07, zeljko <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Thursday 17 of March 2011 08:02:16 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>> Op 2011-03-16 22:29, Žilvinas Ledas het geskryf:
>> > And another observation - wouldn't it be better to have simpler shortcut
>> > for "Rename identifier"? e. g. MonoDevelop uses F2 (as Windows uses it
>> > to rename a file).
>>
>> Brilliant idea! I use shortcuts extensively, but for some reason could
>> never remember the default one for "rename identifier". So I used
>> Shift+F6 - the same shortcut as in Total Commander (also a tool I use
>> often, even under Linux) for renaming files.
>>
>> F2 is even better. :)
>>
>> Now only if I can find the time to complete my IDE add-on that allows
>> you to print out your keyboard shortcuts as a reference card.
>
> Yes, that would be nice thing to have.
>

I'd vote for Ctrl+Shift+E:
1) Delphi compatibility (it is importatnt for me at least, at times I
have to switch IDE's every 15 minutes)
2) IMO F2 is too prominent for this

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

michael.vancanneyt


On Thu, 17 Mar 2011, Alexander Klenin wrote:

> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 17:07, zeljko <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> On Thursday 17 of March 2011 08:02:16 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>>> Op 2011-03-16 22:29, Žilvinas Ledas het geskryf:
>>> > And another observation - wouldn't it be better to have simpler shortcut
>>> > for "Rename identifier"? e. g. MonoDevelop uses F2 (as Windows uses it
>>> > to rename a file).
>>>
>>> Brilliant idea! I use shortcuts extensively, but for some reason could
>>> never remember the default one for "rename identifier". So I used
>>> Shift+F6 - the same shortcut as in Total Commander (also a tool I use
>>> often, even under Linux) for renaming files.
>>>
>>> F2 is even better. :)
>>>
>>> Now only if I can find the time to complete my IDE add-on that allows
>>> you to print out your keyboard shortcuts as a reference card.
>>
>> Yes, that would be nice thing to have.
>>
>
> I'd vote for Ctrl+Shift+E:
> 1) Delphi compatibility (it is importatnt for me at least, at times I
> have to switch IDE's every 15 minutes)
> 2) IMO F2 is too prominent for this
It depends on the key mapping. In "classic IDE", F2 means "save file",
as it has been since 198X in the old Turbo Pascal IDEs

So F2 is not really a good choice.

Michael.


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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Sven Barth
In reply to this post by Alexander Klenin
Am 17.03.2011 10:14, schrieb Alexander Klenin:

> On Thu, Mar 17, 2011 at 17:07, zeljko<[hidden email]>  wrote:
>> On Thursday 17 of March 2011 08:02:16 Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>>> Op 2011-03-16 22:29, Žilvinas Ledas het geskryf:
>>>> And another observation - wouldn't it be better to have simpler shortcut
>>>> for "Rename identifier"? e. g. MonoDevelop uses F2 (as Windows uses it
>>>> to rename a file).
>>>
>>> Brilliant idea! I use shortcuts extensively, but for some reason could
>>> never remember the default one for "rename identifier". So I used
>>> Shift+F6 - the same shortcut as in Total Commander (also a tool I use
>>> often, even under Linux) for renaming files.
>>>
>>> F2 is even better. :)
>>>
>>> Now only if I can find the time to complete my IDE add-on that allows
>>> you to print out your keyboard shortcuts as a reference card.
>>
>> Yes, that would be nice thing to have.
>>
>
> I'd vote for Ctrl+Shift+E:
> 1) Delphi compatibility (it is importatnt for me at least, at times I
> have to switch IDE's every 15 minutes)

There are already differences in the key mappings.

E.g. in Delphi you need to use "Ctrl+Shift+I" to indent a selection
while in Lazarus "Ctrl+I" is enough.

If you want the key mappings Delphi compatible, then you should select
them that way (maybe a Delphi compatible key configuration can be added
for those people).

> 2) IMO F2 is too prominent for this
>

That on the other hand might indeed be a valid reason for not using it...

Regards,
Sven

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by michael.vancanneyt
Op 2011-03-17 11:49, michael.vancanneyt@****be het geskryf:
>
> So F2 is not really a good choice.

Well, in the default "Lazarus" key mapping, F2 is undefined, so there is
no problem in using it.

Then again, is any key mapping a problem - after all you can customize
your key mappings to suite your needs. I know my key mappings are
anything but standard, because most default keyboard shortcuts (in any
application) are near impossible to type easily with the Dvorak keyboard
layout. The world has gone Qwerty crazy! So I remap keyboard shortcuts
to what I find easy to type.



Regards,
   - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by Sven Barth
Op 2011-03-17 12:14, Sven Barth het geskryf:
>> I'd vote for Ctrl+Shift+E:
>> 1) Delphi compatibility (it is importatnt for me at least, at times I
>> have to switch IDE's every 15 minutes)
>
> There are already differences in the key mappings.

As far as I know the Lazarus project only wants LCL to be Delphi
compatible, NOT necessarily the Lazarus IDE.


> If you want the key mappings Delphi compatible, then you should select
> them that way (maybe a Delphi compatible key configuration can be added
> for those people).

Indeed this will be the best choice for those die-hard Delphi fans.
Simply use Delphi only, or create a new Delphi IDE key mapping scheme.



Regards,
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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Sven Barth
Am 17.03.2011 11:23, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:

> Op 2011-03-17 12:14, Sven Barth het geskryf:
>>> I'd vote for Ctrl+Shift+E:
>>> 1) Delphi compatibility (it is importatnt for me at least, at times I
>>> have to switch IDE's every 15 minutes)
>>
>> There are already differences in the key mappings.
>
> As far as I know the Lazarus project only wants LCL to be Delphi
> compatible, NOT necessarily the Lazarus IDE.
>
>

And I hope the secord part keeps to be valid ;)

Regards,
Sven

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Re: [Lazarus] the new menu "source"

Sven Barth
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Am 17.03.2011 11:19, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:

> Op 2011-03-17 11:49, michael.vancanneyt@****be het geskryf:
>>
>> So F2 is not really a good choice.
>
> Well, in the default "Lazarus" key mapping, F2 is undefined, so there is
> no problem in using it.
>
> Then again, is any key mapping a problem - after all you can customize
> your key mappings to suite your needs. I know my key mappings are
> anything but standard, because most default keyboard shortcuts (in any
> application) are near impossible to type easily with the Dvorak keyboard
> layout. The world has gone Qwerty crazy! So I remap keyboard shortcuts
> to what I find easy to type.

Seems to be a bit easier for Neo users like me ^^

Regards,
Sven

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