[Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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[Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list

Hello,

I would like to announce a small poll.

Context:

Web (runtime) applications are abundant.

At my company, desktop is only considered as a last resource (but use cases vary, obviously).

Today, you perfectly can program the web (browser) using FPC's pas2js.

Using pas2js it is also possible to develop VS Code, Atom plugins or Electron applications.

This week in Be.Delphi, (and last week in DüsselDorf, Germany) TMS Software has unveiled
a VS Code plugin: an Object Pascal RAD IDE.

It is based on TMS Web Core, which uses pas2js and the free OmniPascal plugin to give a RAD experience in VS Code.
That means that effectively, you can do your development in the cloud with the VS Code web version.

Further integration of this VS Code plugin with FPC can be expected.

This will mean that soon, you'll be able to do full stack development in VS
Code using object pascal. (or any other language, since VS Code is language agnostic)

This has raised the question whether a dedicated Object Pascal IDE - such as
the Lazarus IDE - is still a necessity. Various avenues can be explored.

Since I am a firm believer in 'Measuring is knowing', I have created a poll:

https://forms.gle/c3QD82UBa3KW6nMz9

Please give your opinion there. It's just 1 question so it won't take long.

Cross-posted on the lazarus forum, feel free to forward to relevant
channels...

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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> On Nov 23, 2019, at 5:12 AM, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> This will mean that soon, you'll be able to do full stack development in VS
> Code using object pascal. (or any other language, since VS Code is language agnostic)
>
> This has raised the question whether a dedicated Object Pascal IDE - such as
> the Lazarus IDE - is still a necessity. Various avenues can be explored.
>
> Since I am a firm believer in 'Measuring is knowing', I have created a poll:
>
> https://forms.gle/c3QD82UBa3KW6nMz9

The question whether Lazarus should be remade as an Electron style app? Do you mean the IDE or all the API/widgets?

I've been using Sublime Text for years but we lack good language server support. Omni Pascal offers this for VSCode but I don't see it's open source so I'm making my own language server when time allows.

Lazarus is a buggy and cumbersome program but I don't see how remaking it in Electron/pas2js would be a better idea when we have these good alternatives like VScode/Sublime Text

Regards,
        Ryan Joseph

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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Ryan Joseph via lazarus wrote:

>
>
>> On Nov 23, 2019, at 5:12 AM, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> This will mean that soon, you'll be able to do full stack development in VS
>> Code using object pascal. (or any other language, since VS Code is language agnostic)
>>
>> This has raised the question whether a dedicated Object Pascal IDE - such as
>> the Lazarus IDE - is still a necessity. Various avenues can be explored.
>>
>> Since I am a firm believer in 'Measuring is knowing', I have created a poll:
>>
>> https://forms.gle/c3QD82UBa3KW6nMz9
>
> The question whether Lazarus should be remade as an Electron style app? Do you mean the IDE or all the API/widgets?

The IDE. That implies the API/Widgets.

>
> I've been using Sublime Text for years but we lack good language server support. Omni Pascal offers this for VSCode but I don't see it's open source so I'm making my own language server when time allows.

I don't think it's open source. It's free, for the moment.

>
> Lazarus is a buggy and cumbersome program but I don't see how remaking it in Electron/pas2js would be a better idea when we have these good alternatives like VScode/Sublime Text

Hence the last option: use the codetools and designer to implement RAD
features in VS Code.

I must say I am shocked to read you consider Lazarus "buggy and cumbersome".
In my experience it's way better than Delphi as an object pascal IDE. I'm
generally more productive in Lazarus than in Delphi, due to the superior
code tools.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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> On Nov 23, 2019, at 5:26 PM, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> The IDE. That implies the API/Widgets.

One of the reasons like Lazarus is because it's native right? I use VSCode for the debugger but I don't like it's a slow and mushy feeling web app. Native is not compatible imo.

>
>>
>> I've been using Sublime Text for years but we lack good language server support. Omni Pascal offers this for VSCode but I don't see it's open source so I'm making my own language server when time allows.
>
> I don't think it's open source. It's free, for the moment.

Then we need to make our own language server and plugins for FPC. My personal preference would be for the FPC team to support some official plugins for popular editors like VSCode/Sublime Text. I do all that stuff myself and it takes lots of time and I don't always do a great job. ;)

>
>>
>> Lazarus is a buggy and cumbersome program but I don't see how remaking it in Electron/pas2js would be a better idea when we have these good alternatives like VScode/Sublime Text
>
> Hence the last option: use the codetools and designer to implement RAD
> features in VS Code.
>
> I must say I am shocked to read you consider Lazarus "buggy and cumbersome".
> In my experience it's way better than Delphi as an object pascal IDE. I'm
> generally more productive in Lazarus than in Delphi, due to the superior
> code tools.

I've never used Delphi but Lazarus is feels extremely dated compared to moderns IDE's like VSCode (and my personal preference of Sublime Text). The strong point of Lazarus is of course actually understanding Pascal but we do we need it when language agnostic IDE's have grown so much?

Regards,
        Ryan Joseph

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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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Well, for me, "the web" is not a viable (sole) option. I still have a
lot of use cases where standalone apps on various platforms are a much
better option. Trying to shoehorn a web based app on each and every use
case just doesn't make sense.

Yes, Lazarus isn't "perfect", but for the most part, it has so far done
the job for me. Across various platforms (with macOS caveats due to the
very nature of that crummy environment).

It would  be good to include Pas2JS with the possibility to design web
based UIs, it just gives one more option to do everything with one
environment/IDE.

I personally loath VSCode just as much as VS itself (or XCode, for that
matter) or Eclipse. The appeal of Lazarus for me is that it even "feels"
Pascal, not just a tool that happens to support ObjectPascal, but just
as a sideshow...

Ralf

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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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I am missing the option "No change wanted towards this direction".
Without this option the poll is biased.


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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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> I am missing the option "No change wanted towards this direction".
> Without this option the poll is biased.

this is my humble opinion, too
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Werner Pamler via lazarus wrote:

> I am missing the option "No change wanted towards this direction".
> Without this option the poll is biased.

That is the first option: Remain an independent IDE.

Having an optional way to edit HTML in a rad way would simply be a plugin.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Ryan Joseph via lazarus wrote:

>
>
>> On Nov 23, 2019, at 5:26 PM, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> The IDE. That implies the API/Widgets.
>
> One of the reasons like Lazarus is because it's native right?  I use
> VSCode for the debugger but I don't like it's a slow and mushy feeling web
> app.  Native is not compatible imo.

I have no idea.

>
>>
>>>
>>> I've been using Sublime Text for years but we lack good language server support. Omni Pascal offers this for VSCode but I don't see it's open source so I'm making my own language server when time allows.
>>
>> I don't think it's open source. It's free, for the moment.
>
> Then we need to make our own language server and plugins for FPC.  My
> personal preference would be for the FPC team to support some official
> plugins for popular editors like VSCode/Sublime Text.  I do all that stuff
> myself and it takes lots of time and I don't always do a great job.  ;)

We have enough on our plate as-is.

>>> Lazarus is a buggy and cumbersome program but I don't see how remaking it in Electron/pas2js would be a better idea when we have these good alternatives like VScode/Sublime Text
>>
>> Hence the last option: use the codetools and designer to implement RAD
>> features in VS Code.
>>
>> I must say I am shocked to read you consider Lazarus "buggy and cumbersome".
>> In my experience it's way better than Delphi as an object pascal IDE. I'm
>> generally more productive in Lazarus than in Delphi, due to the superior
>> code tools.
>
> I've never used Delphi but Lazarus is feels extremely dated compared to
> moderns IDE's like VSCode (and my personal preference of Sublime Text).

Those are editors, not IDEs

> The strong point of Lazarus is of course actually understanding Pascal but
> we do we need it when language agnostic IDE's have grown so much?

Yes, we do, because that is exactly why I am so productive with Lazarus.

VS Code, Atom or anything else doesn't even come close to providing all the
code tools Lazarus provides, and I've tried lots of plugins.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus wrote:

>
>
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Werner Pamler via lazarus wrote:
>
>> I am missing the option "No change wanted towards this direction".
>> Without this option the poll is biased.
>
> That is the first option: Remain an independent IDE.
>
> Having an optional way to edit HTML in a rad way would simply be a plugin.

Hm. I edited the first question to make it more clear, now the poll has an
extra result section :(

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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> On Nov 23, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Ralf Quint via lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I personally loath VSCode just as much as VS itself (or XCode, for that matter) or Eclipse. The appeal of Lazarus for me is that it even "feels" Pascal, not just a tool that happens to support ObjectPascal, but just as a sideshow...

Why the hate towards VSCode? I think it feels mushy next to a snappy c++ built app like Sublime Text but I've been really impressed with all the work Microsoft has put in. It feels better for typing than Lazarus does and it looks more modern/tighter. I now us VSCode for my Pascal debugger now even. The plugin system is far ahead of the cryptic system ST uses so I hope those people are paying attention to what VSCode is doing.

This is all my perspective as Mac user and I don't admit that Lazarus looks better on Windows and even Linux.

Regards,
        Ryan Joseph

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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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Am 24.11.19 um 00:02 schrieb Ryan Joseph via lazarus:
>
>
>> On Nov 23, 2019, at 5:43 PM, Ralf Quint via lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> I personally loath VSCode just as much as VS itself (or XCode, for that matter) or Eclipse. The appeal of Lazarus for me is that it even "feels" Pascal, not just a tool that happens to support ObjectPascal, but just as a sideshow...
> it looks more modern/tighter.

Really? On my linux it has a bright menu, everything else is dark style.
Is this considered modern? Even very basic things like Ctrl+Mouse wheel
for changing the font size does not work. Maybe this is more modern
(like e.g. all those apps which are proud when getting features in 2019
real programs got in the 80th) but I do not want it :)
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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Once having voted the current results are displayed. But when I want to
see later how the poll has evolved I can only vote again -- that's
probably not what you intend. Either add a button to display the current
results, or don't display results at all until the poll has ended.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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El 23/11/19 a les 23:58, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus ha escrit:

>
>
> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019, Werner Pamler via lazarus wrote:
>>
>>> I am missing the option "No change wanted towards this direction".
>>> Without this option the poll is biased.
>>
>> That is the first option: Remain an independent IDE.
>>
>> Having an optional way to edit HTML in a rad way would simply be a
>> plugin.
>
> Hm. I edited the first question to make it more clear, now the poll has an
> extra result section :(

Oh, so that's the reason why the 82% of the votes isn't selectable in
the poll.

Bye
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Werner Pamler via lazarus wrote:

> Once having voted the current results are displayed. But when I want to
> see later how the poll has evolved I can only vote again -- that's
> probably not what you intend. Either add a button to display the current
> results, or don't display results at all until the poll has ended.

The results should be visible any time according to the options,
but I'm not very knowledgeable about google forms: I'm not a poll expert.

So currently I won't touch any of this, because I might break it even more.
When I close the poll, I will publish results.

In each case, if current trend continues, it's pretty much clear what the
general direction is. Not that this came as a big surprise, but as said:
"messen heißt wissen"

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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For my 2 cents, keep Lazarus as an independent, native code IDE. We do instrumentation packages for manufacturing robots, and “the Web” is simply not an option. Laz makes us at least 10x more productive than any other option (and we’ve tried other options - we still maintain code in C++ and C# using VS and it’s a nightmare compared to the Lazarus environment).

What really scares us is that all the mainstream OSes are becoming so Web and mobile centric - the way M$ is rumbling I seriously wonder if and how they’ll support any native development in the not too distant future. Lazarus, with it’s native abilities for Linux, gives us a clear path out should M$ abandon manufacturing and the desktop in general - and we are most appreciative!

Keep up the good work!

Be well,
Dave H.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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On 24/11/2019 00:41, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus wrote:

> On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Werner Pamler via lazarus wrote:
>
>> Once having voted the current results are displayed. But when I want
>> to see later how the poll has evolved I can only vote again -- that's
>> probably not what you intend. Either add a button to display the
>> current results, or don't display results at all until the poll has
>> ended.
>
> The results should be visible any time according to the options, but
> I'm not very knowledgeable about google forms: I'm not a poll expert.
Link to results
https://docs.google.com/forms/d/e/1FAIpQLSdOKANJzS80Od8IyI8xRzlvjlM0iorpwuM7-y2JdhomNcLtsA/viewanalytics
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 18:50:07 -0500, Daithi Haxton via lazarus
<[hidden email]> wrote:

>For my 2 cents, keep Lazarus as an independent, native code IDE. We do instrumentation packages for manufacturing robots, and “the Web” is simply not an option. Laz makes us at least 10x more productive than any other option (and we’ve tried other options - we still maintain code in C++ and C# using VS and it’s a nightmare compared to the Lazarus environment).
>
>What really scares us is that all the mainstream OSes are becoming so Web and mobile centric - the way M$ is rumbling I seriously wonder if and how they’ll support any native development in the not too distant future. Lazarus, with it’s native abilities for Linux, gives us a clear path out should M$ abandon manufacturing and the desktop in general - and we are most appreciative!
>

We are also using Lazarus for hardware related stuff with no help at
all from the web!

Now even MS is abandoning their Windows desktop applications like
Microsoft Office....
The latest Office 2019 seems to be the last one you can install on
your PC and work with in the absence of the Internet, they even
promote NOT using Office 2019 in some official pages!
And they offer NO updates to Office 2019. Just shows where this is
heading.

I for one spend 3-4 months every year in my cottage where we only have
mobile Internet and at speeds that vary depending on how many
neighbors are visiting the island all at the same time. In popular
summer weeks speeds go down into low single digit Mbit/s.

Needless to say it is impossible to use web based stuff there....

I voted to keep Lazarus stand-alone!


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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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Am 24.11.19 um 10:30 schrieb Bo Berglund via lazarus:

> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 18:50:07 -0500, Daithi Haxton via lazarus
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> For my 2 cents, keep Lazarus as an independent, native code IDE. We do instrumentation packages for manufacturing robots, and “the Web” is simply not an option. Laz makes us at least 10x more productive than any other option (and we’ve tried other options - we still maintain code in C++ and C# using VS and it’s a nightmare compared to the Lazarus environment).
>>
>> What really scares us is that all the mainstream OSes are becoming so Web and mobile centric - the way M$ is rumbling I seriously wonder if and how they’ll support any native development in the not too distant future. Lazarus, with it’s native abilities for Linux, gives us a clear path out should M$ abandon manufacturing and the desktop in general - and we are most appreciative!
>>
>
> We are also using Lazarus for hardware related stuff with no help at
> all from the web!

I think this is *the* main advantage of FPC/Lazarus: you can use it for
almost every type of application on any platform (sorry C64 users, we do
not have a solution ... yet ;)).

>
> I for one spend 3-4 months every year in my cottage where we only have
> mobile Internet and at speeds that vary depending on how many
> neighbors are visiting the island all at the same time. In popular
> summer weeks speeds go down into low single digit Mbit/s.

May I quote you in discussions :)))? Here in Germany, Sweden is always
taken as an example where even the smallest cottage has internet by fiber.
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Re: [Lazarus] The future of the Lazarus IDE

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On Sun, 24 Nov 2019, Bo Berglund via lazarus wrote:

> On Sat, 23 Nov 2019 18:50:07 -0500, Daithi Haxton via lazarus
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> For my 2 cents, keep Lazarus as an independent, native code IDE. We do instrumentation packages for manufacturing robots, and ?the Web? is simply not an option. Laz makes us at least 10x more productive than any other option (and we?ve tried other options - we still maintain code in C++ and C# using VS and it?s a nightmare compared to the Lazarus environment).
>>
>> What really scares us is that all the mainstream OSes are becoming so Web and mobile centric - the way M$ is rumbling I seriously wonder if and how they?ll support any native development in the not too distant future. Lazarus, with it?s native abilities for Linux, gives us a clear path out should M$ abandon manufacturing and the desktop in general - and we are most appreciative!
>>
>
> We are also using Lazarus for hardware related stuff with no help at
> all from the web!
>
> Now even MS is abandoning their Windows desktop applications like
> Microsoft Office....
> The latest Office 2019 seems to be the last one you can install on
> your PC and work with in the absence of the Internet, they even
> promote NOT using Office 2019 in some official pages!
> And they offer NO updates to Office 2019. Just shows where this is
> heading.

Simple: money.

If it is in the cloud, they can work with subscriptions.

No Pay = No Office.

If it is on your PC, they don't control it.


Michael.
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