[Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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[Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Hi,

we have many Delphi programs with identifiers containing parts like
'Köln' and 'Liège'. These programs we want to convert to Lazarus.
Unfortunately, Lazarus (or FP) seems not to be able to use identifiers
with umlaute and accents. Maybe the reason for this could be pure
historical and stem from the pre Unicode epoche.

Manually chanching all those identifiers and modifying the references to
them is not very elegant. By the way: Using the international names of
cities instead of their orginal names introduces new difficulties. The
international name of 'München', for instance, is 'Monaco', the same
name as that for the Grimaldi Imperium.

Circumscribing is also no option. The name of Müllerstadt is
'Müllerstadt' and not 'Muellerstadt'.

Could Lazarus (and/or maybe Free Pascal) be improved to tolerate those
identfiers?

Regards  --  Joe
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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Hi!

Then you must allow Cyrillic,d Arabic and so Chinese and other national
and special characters to be used in identifiers.
There was a thread about this issue on the list (or maybe on fpc's one)
and (as I can remember) the conclusion was that it's a bad idea.
To keep source codes universally readable and understandable the special
and national characters must be avoided in the language itself (and so
in identifiers).


2020. 07. 03. 14:09 keltezéssel, Special via lazarus írta:

> Hi,
>
> we have many Delphi programs with identifiers containing parts like
> 'Köln' and 'Liège'. These programs we want to convert to Lazarus.
> Unfortunately, Lazarus (or FP) seems not to be able to use identifiers
> with umlaute and accents. Maybe the reason for this could be pure
> historical and stem from the pre Unicode epoche.
>
> Manually chanching all those identifiers and modifying the references
> to them is not very elegant. By the way: Using the international names
> of cities instead of their orginal names introduces new difficulties.
> The international name of 'München', for instance, is 'Monaco', the
> same name as that for the Grimaldi Imperium.
>
> Circumscribing is also no option. The name of Müllerstadt is
> 'Müllerstadt' and not 'Muellerstadt'.
>
> Could Lazarus (and/or maybe Free Pascal) be improved to tolerate those
> identfiers?
>
> Regards  --  Joe

--
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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Am 03.07.2020 um 14:55 schrieb Péter Gábor via lazarus:

> Hi!
>
> Then you must allow Cyrillic,d Arabic and so Chinese and other national
> and special characters to be used in identifiers.
> There was a thread about this issue on the list (or maybe on fpc's one)
> and (as I can remember) the conclusion was that it's a bad idea.
> To keep source codes universally readable and understandable the special
> and national characters must be avoided in the language itself (and so
> in identifiers).
>
>
> 2020. 07. 03. 14:09 keltezéssel, Special via lazarus írta:
>> Hi,
>>
>> we have many Delphi programs with identifiers containing parts like
>> 'Köln' and 'Liège'. These programs we want to convert to Lazarus.
>> Unfortunately, Lazarus (or FP) seems not to be able to use identifiers
>> with umlaute and accents. Maybe the reason for this could be pure
>> historical and stem from the pre Unicode epoche.
>>
>> Manually chanching all those identifiers and modifying the references
>> to them is not very elegant. By the way: Using the international names
>> The international name of 'München', for instance, is 'Monaco', the
>> same name as that for the Grimaldi Imperium.
>>
>> Circumscribing is also no option. The name of Müllerstadt is
>> 'Müllerstadt' and not 'Muellerstadt'.
>>
>> Could Lazarus (and/or maybe Free Pascal) be improved to tolerate those
>> identfiers?
>>
>> Regards  --  Joe

Hi, Peter,

on a Elementary  School near Heidelberg the nine-years-old pupils learn
programming with Delphi 10.3 Community Edition. In one of the programs
they use 'Type ZimmerType = (Küche, Wohnzimmer, Schlafzimmer);", 
translated something like  "Type RoomType = (Kitchen, LeavingRoon,
BedRoom)".  Their English skills are poor, they don't yet know the
meaning of 'Kitchen'. So their teacher was happy to be able to use "Küche".

As we see, Pascal is not only a programming language for professionals
with the need for code universally (and internationally) readable, but
also for kids on elementary schools. Why should it be forbidden for them
to use "Küche"?  No one is forced to use identifiers with umlaute and 
accents, if Lazarus would allow that, if he wishes to write
internationally readable code.

I think, it should be the decision of the programmer, to write
internationally or nationally better understandable code. He should not
be forced to avoid "Köln" and "Liège", as Lazarus does.

By the way, Python 3 (actually a programmimng language with very much
more users than Pascal in all its flavours) deliberately allows "Liège".

Regards --  Joe
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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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In reply to this post by Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
On 03/07/2020 14:55, Péter Gábor via lazarus wrote:
> Hi!
>
> Then you must allow Cyrillic,d Arabic and so Chinese and other national
> and special characters to be used in identifiers.
Worse, the same source may then compile or fail to compile depending on
the locale.

Pascal is case insensitive.
var I: integer; // upper i
...
for i := 0 to x do ...;

compiles today.

But when compiling, using Turkish locale, this would fail.
In Turkish there is a dotted and a dotless i, both upper and lower.
So I and i are different letters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotted_and_dotless_I

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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Hi!

I hope that you did not misread my words/sentences.
Your example if perfect to illustrate the reason why I don't want
international characters in the language itself (and identifiers).


2020. 07. 03. 16:13 keltezéssel, Martin Frb via lazarus írta:

> On 03/07/2020 14:55, Péter Gábor via lazarus wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> Then you must allow Cyrillic,d Arabic and so Chinese and other national
>> and special characters to be used in identifiers.
> Worse, the same source may then compile or fail to compile depending
> on the locale.
>
> Pascal is case insensitive.
> var I: integer; // upper i
> ...
> for i := 0 to x do ...;
>
> compiles today.
>
> But when compiling, using Turkish locale, this would fail.
> In Turkish there is a dotted and a dotless i, both upper and lower.
> So I and i are different letters.
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotted_and_dotless_I
>

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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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On 03/07/2020 16:21, Péter Gábor via lazarus wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I hope that you did not misread my words/sentences.
> Your example if perfect to illustrate the reason why I don't want
> international characters in the language itself (and identifiers).
Yes, that was my understanding.

You gave reasons why it would be a bad idea. I added a reason, that I
think would make the idea even worse.
In other words, I supported the current a-z0-1_ set.

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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Martin Frb via lazarus wrote:

> On 03/07/2020 16:21, Péter Gábor via lazarus wrote:
>> Hi!
>>
>> I hope that you did not misread my words/sentences.
>> Your example if perfect to illustrate the reason why I don't want
>> international characters in the language itself (and identifiers).
> Yes, that was my understanding.
>
> You gave reasons why it would be a bad idea. I added a reason, that I
> think would make the idea even worse.
> In other words, I supported the current a-z0-1_ set.
I did a quick test in Delphi:

program doti;

{$APPTYPE CONSOLE}

Var
   i: Integer; // lowercase dotted i in turkish

begin
   for İ :=0 to 10 do // uppercase dotted I in turkish
     writeln(i);
end.

Results in

[dcc32 Error] doti.dpr(9): E2003 Undeclared identifier: 'İ'

Same for German:

program doti;

{$APPTYPE CONSOLE}

Var
   ẞ: Integer;

begin
   for ß :=0 to 10 do
     writeln(ß);
end.

[dcc32 Error] doti.dpr(9): E2003 Undeclared identifier: 'ß'

So indeed, case-insensitivity is lost. Even in German.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Michael:
>
> I did a quick test in Delphi:
>
> program doti;
>
> {$APPTYPE CONSOLE}

...

Great job - Thanks. That came in as I was contemplating doing the same test.

I wonder how this test will go in Python - I suppose it cannot matter
for case-sensitive languages.



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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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In reply to this post by Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
On 03/07/2020 16:37, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Martin Frb via lazarus wrote:
>
>> On 03/07/2020 16:21, Péter Gábor via lazarus wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> I hope that you did not misread my words/sentences.
>>> Your example if perfect to illustrate the reason why I don't want
>>> international characters in the language itself (and identifiers).
>> Yes, that was my understanding.
>>
>> You gave reasons why it would be a bad idea. I added a reason, that I
>> think would make the idea even worse.
>> In other words, I supported the current a-z0-1_ set.
>
> I did a quick test in Delphi:
>
>
> [dcc32 Error] doti.dpr(9): E2003 Undeclared identifier: 'ß'
>
> So indeed, case-insensitivity is lost. Even in German.

And that, despite the German ß is not locale dependent. It has exactly
one uppercase version.
Were as "i" has 2. (But not within any one locale)

I would guess that if you copy and paste, and some of your umlauts/chars
are composed, some decomposed, that will likely not work either.
And for composed chars with more than one combining codepoint, if the
order of the combining codepoints does not matter, the problem will
likely be the same.

Then there are full width codepoint for some chars. (They could be
argued to be ignored, but readability would be gone...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halfwidth_and_Fullwidth_Forms_(Unicode_block)
So "A" and "A" should also be the same.
And full width digits should be allowed in numbers.

I do wonder, if Delphi accepts any of the Utf8 spaces for separating
identifiers.
https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/category/Zs
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_divider
Especially the zero width space....

And the soft hyphen? Will it be ignored, so the same identifier in
different locations of the source can have it, or not have it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_hyphen

and many more.....
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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Martin Frb via lazarus <[hidden email]> schrieb am Fr., 3. Juli 2020, 17:02:
On 03/07/2020 16:37, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus wrote:
>
>
> On Fri, 3 Jul 2020, Martin Frb via lazarus wrote:
>
>> On 03/07/2020 16:21, Péter Gábor via lazarus wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> I hope that you did not misread my words/sentences.
>>> Your example if perfect to illustrate the reason why I don't want
>>> international characters in the language itself (and identifiers).
>> Yes, that was my understanding.
>>
>> You gave reasons why it would be a bad idea. I added a reason, that I
>> think would make the idea even worse.
>> In other words, I supported the current a-z0-1_ set.
>
> I did a quick test in Delphi:
>
>
> [dcc32 Error] doti.dpr(9): E2003 Undeclared identifier: 'ß'
>
> So indeed, case-insensitivity is lost. Even in German.

And that, despite the German ß is not locale dependent. It has exactly
one uppercase version.
Were as "i" has 2. (But not within any one locale)

I would guess that if you copy and paste, and some of your umlauts/chars
are composed, some decomposed, that will likely not work either.
And for composed chars with more than one combining codepoint, if the
order of the combining codepoints does not matter, the problem will
likely be the same.

Then there are full width codepoint for some chars. (They could be
argued to be ignored, but readability would be gone...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halfwidth_and_Fullwidth_Forms_(Unicode_block)
So "A" and "A" should also be the same.
And full width digits should be allowed in numbers.

I do wonder, if Delphi accepts any of the Utf8 spaces for separating
identifiers.
https://www.compart.com/en/unicode/category/Zs
and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Word_divider
Especially the zero width space....

And the soft hyphen? Will it be ignored, so the same identifier in
different locations of the source can have it, or not have it?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_hyphen

It could very well be that Delphi (and other languages) follows the Unicode Standard Annex #31 which is about Unicode Identifiers in programming languages and also deals with case insensitive identifiers ( https://unicode.org/reports/tr31/ ). 

Regards, 
Sven

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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 10:08 AM Special via lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:
on a Elementary  School near Heidelberg the nine-years-old pupils learn
programming with Delphi 10.3 Community Edition. In one of the programs
they use 'Type ZimmerType = (Küche, Wohnzimmer, Schlafzimmer);", 

Having educational purposes in mind, can variable masking be achieved through IDE itself, rather than the compiler.

If a character outside of ANSI range is met within an identifier, IDE would replace it with something else.
So, instead of having "Küche" the source code would look like "K_Ache". (the next character would be replaced with _B, _C ..and so on)

It doesn't have to be done on the fly, it could be done before starting the compilation. 
There are two benefits with this approach:
* no changes are needed for the compiler. (works with any version)
* the language rules of capitalization can be followed

thanks,
Dmitry


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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 12:44 PM Dmitry Boyarintsev <[hidden email]> wrote:
Having educational purposes in mind, can variable masking be achieved through IDE itself, rather than the compiler.

Yes, i do realize that it might get worse when it comes to debugging, where the same masking technique will have to be used.

thanks,
Dmitry 

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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Am 03.07.2020 um 16:13 schrieb Martin Frb via lazarus:
On 03/07/2020 14:55, Péter Gábor via lazarus wrote:
Hi!

Then you must allow Cyrillic,d Arabic and so Chinese and other national
and special characters to be used in identifiers.
Worse, the same source may then compile or fail to compile depending on the locale.

Pascal is case insensitive.
var I: integer; // upper i
...
for i := 0 to x do ...;

compiles today.

But when compiling, using Turkish locale, this would fail.
In Turkish there is a dotted and a dotless i, both upper and lower.
So I and i are different letters.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotted_and_dotless_I

Hi,

if Lazarus had an option "Allow accented Latin characters and Umlauts in identifiers", then Cyrillic, Arabic and Chinese and other special national charcters and dotted characters like the Turkish "I." were not included ('Dotted' is not 'Accented').  So we could enjoy the benefits of this proposal without the drawbacks.

-- Joe



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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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On Sat, 4 Jul 2020, Special via lazarus wrote:

> Am 03.07.2020 um 16:13 schrieb Martin Frb via lazarus:
>> On 03/07/2020 14:55, Péter Gábor via lazarus wrote:
>>> Hi!
>>>
>>> Then you must allow Cyrillic,d Arabic and so Chinese and other national
>>> and special characters to be used in identifiers.
>> Worse, the same source may then compile or fail to compile depending on the
>> locale.
>>
>> Pascal is case insensitive.
>> var I: integer; // upper i
>> ...
>> for i := 0 to x do ...;
>>
>> compiles today.
>>
>> But when compiling, using Turkish locale, this would fail.
>> In Turkish there is a dotted and a dotless i, both upper and lower.
>> So I and i are different letters.
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dotted_and_dotless_I
>
> Hi,
>
> if Lazarus had an option "Allow accented Latin characters and Umlauts in
> identifiers", then Cyrillic, Arabic and Chinese and other special national
> charcters and dotted characters like the Turkish "I." were not included
> ('Dotted' is not 'Accented').  So we could enjoy the benefits of this
> proposal without the drawbacks.
Sorry, I don't think this is right.

Why should Russian, Chinese or Arabic or any non-latin alphabet students
be disadvantaged compared to western students ?

Either you allow them all (with all that implies) or none (as it is now).

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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> Am 03.07.2020 um 14:09 schrieb Special via lazarus <[hidden email]>:
>
> Hi,
>
> we have many Delphi programs with identifiers containing parts like 'Köln' and 'Liège'. These programs we want to convert to Lazarus. Unfortunately, Lazarus (or FP) seems not to be able to use identifiers with umlaute and accents. Maybe the reason for this could be pure historical and stem from the pre Unicode epoche.
>
> Manually chanching all those identifiers and modifying the references to them is not very elegant. By the way: Using the international names of cities instead of their orginal names introduces new difficulties. The international name of 'München', for instance, is 'Monaco', the same name as that for the Grimaldi Imperium.
>
> Circumscribing is also no option. The name of Müllerstadt is 'Müllerstadt' and not 'Muellerstadt'.

Nevertheless German is a bad reason in this case. I think almost every German knows that e.g. the umlauts are often replaced by ae, oe, ue. All my email addresses are still using Klaempfl instead of Klämpfl. And actually everybody does this right.

>
> Could Lazarus (and/or maybe Free Pascal) be improved to tolerate those identfiers?
>
> Regards  --  Joe
> --
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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Il 03.07.2020 18:44, Dmitry Boyarintsev via lazarus ha scritto:
On Fri, Jul 3, 2020 at 10:08 AM Special via lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:
on a Elementary  School near Heidelberg the nine-years-old pupils learn
programming with Delphi 10.3 Community Edition. In one of the programs
they use 'Type ZimmerType = (Küche, Wohnzimmer, Schlafzimmer);", 

Having educational purposes in mind, can variable masking be achieved through IDE itself, rather than the compiler.

If a character outside of ANSI range is met within an identifier, IDE would replace it with something else.
So, instead of having "Küche" the source code would look like "K_Ache". (the next character would be replaced with _B, _C ..and so on)

It doesn't have to be done on the fly, it could be done before starting the compilation. 
There are two benefits with this approach:
* no changes are needed for the compiler. (works with any version)
* the language rules of capitalization can be followed

Living in Switzerland, where German is one of the national languages, we oft face problems like this.

In this case, we simply substitute "ä" with "ae", "ö" with "oe" and "ü" with "ue". So: Küche -> Kueche. And: "ß" -> "ss".

Freundliche Grüße aus der Schweiz :)



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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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On 03/07/2020 3:37 pm, Michael Van Canneyt via lazarus wrote:
> I did a quick test in Delphi:

If Unicode is indeed supported in the language itself, it would
be hilarious to start seeing coding using emojis as identifiers!
:-D

https://unicode.org/emoji/charts/full-emoji-list.html


var
   😀: Integer;
begin
   for 😀 := 0 to 10 do
     writeln(😀);
end.


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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On 04/07/2020 7:11 pm, Graeme Geldenhuys via lazarus wrote:
> var
>    😀: Integer;
> begin
>    for 😀 := 0 to 10 do
>      writeln(😀);
> end.


And exception variables could be 🤢  (nauseated face).


Regards,
  Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Am 04.07.2020 um 20:13 schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys via lazarus:
> On 04/07/2020 7:11 pm, Graeme Geldenhuys via lazarus wrote:
>> var
>>     😀: Integer;
>> begin
>>     for 😀 := 0 to 10 do
>>       writeln(😀);
>> end.
>
> And exception variables could be 🤢  (nauseated face).

I've just tested: Delphi does not support Emojis. According to their
documentation (
http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/Sydney/en/Identifiers ) they
adhere to ISO/IEC TR 10176:2003 (
https://www.iso.org/standard/37765.html ). Sadly this standard isn't
freely available to check what is allowed and what not :/

Regards,
Sven
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Re: [Lazarus] Proposal: Allow Umlaute and Accented Characters in Identifiers

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Op 2020-07-04 om 22:48 schreef Sven Barth via lazarus:

> Am 04.07.2020 um 20:13 schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys via lazarus:
>> On 04/07/2020 7:11 pm, Graeme Geldenhuys via lazarus wrote:
>>> var
>>>     😀: Integer;
>>> begin
>>>     for 😀 := 0 to 10 do
>>>       writeln(😀);
>>> end.
>>
>> And exception variables could be 🤢  (nauseated face).
>
> I've just tested: Delphi does not support Emojis. According to their
> documentation (
> http://docwiki.embarcadero.com/RADStudio/Sydney/en/Identifiers ) they
> adhere to ISO/IEC TR 10176:2003 (
> https://www.iso.org/standard/37765.html ). Sadly this standard isn't
> freely available to check what is allowed and what not :/
>
Seems C++ (23) committee has that problem too
http://www.open-std.org/jtc1/sc22/wg21/docs/papers/2019/p1949r0.html 
they refer to the relevant annex that seems to be available
https://unicode.org/reports/tr31/


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