[Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

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[Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Zaher Dirkey
Hi,
Would you please remove Arabic language from the release version.

Because:
1 - it is incomplete at all, and have wrong translation, look at attachment.
2 - All Arabic developers use English IDE for all languages.

Best Regards
Zaher Dirkey


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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Mattias Gaertner
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 23:40:12 +0300
Zaher Dirkey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
> Would you please remove Arabic language from the release version.
>
> Because:
> 1 - it is incomplete at all, and have wrong translation, look at attachment.

Can you translate for us?

> 2 - All Arabic developers use English IDE for all languages.

Can some other Arabic speakers comment this?

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Zaher Dirkey

On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 23:40:12 +0300
Zaher Dirkey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Hi,
> Would you please remove Arabic language from the release version.
>
> Because:
> 1 - it is incomplete at all, and have wrong translation, look at attachment.

Can you translate for us?


If i translated we will not used at all, no will one use it.
 
> 2 - All Arabic developers use English IDE for all languages.

Can some other Arabic speakers comment this?
 

Yes there is (Motaz) but in a forum, not use message list, if you like i can post it there?

Best Regards
Zaher Dirkey


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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Mattias Gaertner
On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 23:51:54 +0300
Zaher Dirkey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Fri, Aug 3, 2012 at 11:49 PM, Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> > On Fri, 3 Aug 2012 23:40:12 +0300
> > Zaher Dirkey <[hidden email]> wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > Would you please remove Arabic language from the release version.
> > >
> > > Because:
> > > 1 - it is incomplete at all, and have wrong translation, look at
> > attachment.
> >
> > Can you translate for us?
> >
> >
> If i translated we will not used at all, no will one use it.

Which item is this?

 
> > > 2 - All Arabic developers use English IDE for all languages.
> >
> > Can some other Arabic speakers comment this?
> >
>
>
> Yes there is (Motaz) but in a forum, not use message list, if you like i
> can post it there?

Yes, please.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Zaher Dirkey
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:13 AM, Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If i translated we will not used at all, no will one use it.

Which item is this?

 
There is many items not translated, and it will take long time to finish it, even that, we will no use this translation, because we study the programming in the schools/collage in English and no one can understand the developing Arabic words.


> > > 2 - All Arabic developers use English IDE for all languages.
> >
> > Can some other Arabic speakers comment this?
> >
>
>
> Yes there is (Motaz) but in a forum, not use message list, if you like i
> can post it there?

Yes, please.

Repost it in the forum
http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,17742.0.html

Best Regards
Zaher Dirkey


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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Mattias Gaertner
On Sat, 4 Aug 2012 00:35:24 +0300
Zaher Dirkey <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 12:13 AM, Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]
> > wrote:
>
> > > If i translated we will not used at all, no will one use it.
> >
> > Which item is this?
> >
> >
> There is many items not translated, and it will take long time to finish
> it, even that, we will no use this translation, because we study the
> programming in the schools/collage in English and no one can understand the
> developing Arabic words.

There is no question that wrong translations must be fixed or removed
so that the default (English) is shown.

What about the texts and hints?


>
> Repost it in the forum
> http://www.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,17742.0.html

Thanks.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

silvioprog
2012/8/3 Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]>:
[...]
> There is no question that wrong translations must be fixed or removed
> so that the default (English) is shown.

+1

IMHO, the IDE could come completely in English as default. Who needs
of translated IDE, can choose the language manually via tools |
options.

Well, I think that have more important things to implement in the IDE
instead worrying with translations. :/

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Zaher Dirkey
In reply to this post by Mattias Gaertner

On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]> wrote:

There is no question that wrong translations must be fixed or removed
so that the default (English) is shown.

What about the texts and hints?

I think po files 10% translated, idk how to measure it, a lot of sentences is not translated, and in other have we are not use it even if translated.

I am Pascal programmer for a 20 years, my wife also teacher, teaching students Delphi 7 in English language.

Best Regards
Zaher Dirkey


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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Zaher Dirkey
In reply to this post by silvioprog
On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 1:22 AM, silvioprog <[hidden email]> wrote:
IMHO, the IDE could come completely in English as default. Who needs
of translated IDE, can choose the language manually via tools |
options.

I agree at least for incomplete languages.

Best Regards
Zaher Dirkey


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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

silvioprog
In reply to this post by Zaher Dirkey
2012/8/3 Zaher Dirkey <[hidden email]>:

> On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> There is no question that wrong translations must be fixed or removed
>> so that the default (English) is shown.
>>
>> What about the texts and hints?
>
>
> I think po files 10% translated, idk how to measure it, a lot of sentences
> is not translated, and in other have we are not use it even if translated.
>
> I am Pascal programmer for a 20 years, my wife also teacher, teaching
> students Delphi 7 in English language.
>
> Best Regards
> Zaher Dirkey

Here in Brazil all programmers (yes, ALL) use Delphi in english.

I think very strange the IDE capture the current language of operating
system (portuguese) and uses it as default. x(

This has hindered my support for Lazarus, because the users can't
found the options (because all menus come in portuguese language). :(

Another problem:

http://imagebin.org/223226

IDE in english as default plz! ¹ :)

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Avishai
I use English IDE on Hebrew system.  I have never thought it was a good idea to let Locale decide these things.  Not for the IDE and not for my programs.

On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 1:57 AM, silvioprog <[hidden email]> wrote:
2012/8/3 Zaher Dirkey <[hidden email]>:
> On Sat, Aug 4, 2012 at 1:10 AM, Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> There is no question that wrong translations must be fixed or removed
>> so that the default (English) is shown.
>>
>> What about the texts and hints?
>
>
> I think po files 10% translated, idk how to measure it, a lot of sentences
> is not translated, and in other have we are not use it even if translated.
>
> I am Pascal programmer for a 20 years, my wife also teacher, teaching
> students Delphi 7 in English language.
>
> Best Regards
> Zaher Dirkey

Here in Brazil all programmers (yes, ALL) use Delphi in english.

I think very strange the IDE capture the current language of operating
system (portuguese) and uses it as default. x(

This has hindered my support for Lazarus, because the users can't
found the options (because all menus come in portuguese language). :(

Another problem:

http://imagebin.org/223226

IDE in english as default plz! ¹ :)

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Avishai
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אבישי גוֹר

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Maxim Ganetsky
In reply to this post by silvioprog
04.08.2012 2:57, silvioprog пишет:
> Here in Brazil all programmers (yes, ALL) use Delphi in english.
>
> I think very strange the IDE capture the current language of operating
> system (portuguese) and uses it as default. x(

There is Brazilian Portuguese translation, which is well maintained and
complete. Why do you use Portuguese one in Brazil? It is outdated copy
of Brazilian Portuguese one anyway.

> This has hindered my support for Lazarus, because the users can't
> found the options (because all menus come in portuguese language). :(

Portuguese users can't read Portuguese, so they are even completely
unable to find language switch? Interesting. :)

On a serious note:

You can use --language=en option to start with English interface. This
choice will be remembered, so this is needed only once.

Maybe installer can be improved to ask preferred language.

> Another problem:
>
> http://imagebin.org/223226

See above.

> IDE in english as default plz! ¹ :)

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

silvioprog
2012/8/3 Maxim Ganetsky <[hidden email]>:

> 04.08.2012 2:57, silvioprog пишет:
>>
>> Here in Brazil all programmers (yes, ALL) use Delphi in english.
>>
>> I think very strange the IDE capture the current language of operating
>> system (portuguese) and uses it as default. x(
>
> There is Brazilian Portuguese translation, which is well maintained and
> complete. Why do you use Portuguese one in Brazil? It is outdated copy of
> Brazilian Portuguese one anyway.

I use Lazarus IDE and several softwares produced on USA in
default/native language - english. ;)

>> This has hindered my support for Lazarus, because the users can't
>> found the options (because all menus come in portuguese language). :(
>
> Portuguese users can't read Portuguese, so they are even completely unable
> to find language switch? Interesting. :)

Nope.

Brazilians know how to read Brazilian Portuguese well, but we, in
everyday life, usually we use for example the word "Watches" instead
of "Observadores", because the majority of the programmers learned
Pascal in an IDE in English - aka Delphi.

> On a serious note:
>
> You can use --language=en option to start with English interface. This
> choice will be remembered, so this is needed only once.

Nice.

> Maybe installer can be improved to ask preferred language.

I think that's a great solution for all problems with
internationalization, and currently several programs use this
approach.

>> Another problem:
>>
>> http://imagebin.org/223226
>
>
> See above.
>
>> IDE in english as default plz! ¹ :)
>
> --
> Best regards,
>  Maxim Ganetsky                  mailto:[hidden email]

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Maxim Ganetsky
04.08.2012 4:25, silvioprog пишет:
> 2012/8/3 Maxim Ganetsky <[hidden email]>:
>> 04.08.2012 2:57, silvioprog пишет:

>> Maybe installer can be improved to ask preferred language.
>
> I think that's a great solution for all problems with
> internationalization, and currently several programs use this
> approach.

Please create a feature request.

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Reinier Olislagers
In reply to this post by silvioprog
On 4-8-2012 0:22, silvioprog wrote:

> 2012/8/3 Mattias Gaertner <[hidden email]>:
> [...]
>> There is no question that wrong translations must be fixed or removed
>> so that the default (English) is shown.
>
> +1
>
> IMHO, the IDE could come completely in English as default. Who needs
> of translated IDE, can choose the language manually via tools |
> options.
>
> Well, I think that have more important things to implement in the IDE
> instead worrying with translations. :/
Agreed with those statements: the first thing I do on a new Lazarus
install is switch the language from Dutch to English.
English would seem - at least to Silvio & me ;) - to be a better default
than local languages.
I'd think this argument applies more strongly to development IDEs that
use English-based programming languages and constructs already as
opposed to end user programs.

On the other hand, I can well imagine people in other countries, such as
Germany or France, where using one's one language instead of English is
much more accepted, feel differently.

I'm not really bothered either way (English default or not), personally
don't care about translations, but if people do want to make the effort
(i.e. it makes sense to them): fine by me.

Thanks,
Reinier

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Sven Barth
Am 04.08.2012 08:18, schrieb Reinier Olislagers:
> On the other hand, I can well imagine people in other countries, such as
> Germany or France, where using one's one language instead of English is
> much more accepted, feel differently.

Correct. :)

Though I don't really care whether the IDE presents itself in English or
German... at least as long it is one of those two languages ;)

Regards,
Sven

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Bart
In reply to this post by Maxim Ganetsky
On 8/4/12, Maxim Ganetsky <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Maybe installer can be improved to ask preferred language.

+1

I Find the translated IDE (dutch) more difficult to use than the english one.
For me thinking in/about Pascal is thinking more or less in English.
I'm so used to words like properties, events etc. that the translated
words (eigenschappen, gebeurtenissen) look strange to me in the
context of programming.
Also these two translated strings are much larger than the original
ones, and as a result the first two tabs of OI get so wide, I can
hardly read the captions, and I can't see the other two tabs.

Mind you MS does an even worse job with VBA.
They even translate the programming language iteself!
For instance IF() doesn't work in Dutch version of Excel, you must use
ALS(), which is a literal translation of the word IF.

Bart

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Flávio Etrusco
In reply to this post by silvioprog
>>
>> Portuguese users can't read Portuguese, so they are even completely unable
>> to find language switch? Interesting. :)
>
> Nope.
>
> Brazilians know how to read Brazilian Portuguese well, but we, in
> everyday life, usually we use for example the word "Watches" instead
> of "Observadores", because the majority of the programmers learned
> Pascal in an IDE in English - aka Delphi.

Yes, common sense says every programmer needs (at the least) basic
English skills; yes, I too hate every application translation I ever
used so I use English localization whenever I can.
However, I completely agree with Maxim's remarks,


>> Maybe installer can be improved to ask preferred language.
>
> I think that's a great solution for all problems with
> internationalization, and currently several programs use this
> approach.

+1. IMO the installer is the best place to ask for preferred language
or teach how to change it.


>>> Another problem:
>>>
>>> http://imagebin.org/223226

Keep counting ;)
The pt_BR locale is plenty of small errors and "suboptimal"
translations. We need to reach to Marcelo and help him make a usable
translation.


>> See above.
>>
>>> IDE in english as default plz! ¹ :)

<rant>
When I buy a new PC and a Windows copy is forced down on me (because
of MS damn monopoly and shady deals) and it must be in pt_BR (because
of stupid Brazilian laws) and I can't change the language unless I buy
Ultimate (MS international price fixing?), and e.g. "Memory usage
peak" is translated to something that means "Peak-memory usage", then,
yes, I get really pissed.
</rant>
However, I know programmers that don't speak English, so a localized
IDE can reach a wider audience, and I believe most people will/do
realize Lazarus is an OSS project and will overlook translation
problems (but it's better to have a hint in the installer and better
yet be able to change it right away).

Best regards,
Flávio

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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Jürgen Hestermann
In reply to this post by Reinier Olislagers
Am 2012-08-04 08:18, schrieb Reinier Olislagers:
> On the other hand, I can well imagine people in other countries, such as Germany or France, where using one's one language instead of English is much more accepted, feel differently.
I also fight with the language settings from time to time (after installation) and I also prefer the english language. I have installations on different OS's (english and german) and I have got so used to english interfaces (especially for programming languages) that the german versions look very unfamiliar. Also, the english version is the best maitnained and with the german language setting I often see text exceeding available space so that I cannot read all of it.

Therefore I would vote for english as default too. Adding the other languages is a goodie but should have a very low priority.
Instead of investing time into translations it would be better to invest it into bug fixes.



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Re: [Lazarus] Please remove Arabic language from the release version

Hans-Peter Diettrich
In reply to this post by Maxim Ganetsky
Maxim Ganetsky schrieb:
> 04.08.2012 2:57, silvioprog пишет:

>> This has hindered my support for Lazarus, because the users can't
>> found the options (because all menus come in portuguese language). :(
>
> Portuguese users can't read Portuguese, so they are even completely
> unable to find language switch? Interesting. :)

Most languages don't have *native* words for computer-technic terms. In
Portuguese the wording even differs between Portuguese and Brazilian.

Q: how many languages have *really* native computer terms?

The evolution of computers took place mainly in German(y) and
English(USA), and in Germany all German terms are superseded by their
English counterparts, in the past decades. French is a special case,
because the government enforces (by law?) the use of French words for
everything.

I'm not sure about other languages, but I've learned that e.g. Russian
terms are so long, that they are almost unused in practice. At least
it's *known* from internationalization of programs, that English terms
are the shortest of all languages (except Chinese perhaps ;-) and much
more space has to be left in a GUI for the nationalized terms. An IDE
has such problems everywhere, with a risk of truncated translated labels.

In case of Arabic and Hebrew, or other RTL reading languages, I could
understand that those speakers prefer LTR text in their programs,
instead of an mix of native RTL with English LTR keywords and names for
the standard units, types, variables and subroutines.

When original Pascal or other languages only allowed for ASCII
characters in source code, perhaps extended with a few unsystematic
codepages, it was common practice to use English terms even for the
identifiers in self-written code and, more important, in libraries for
common use.


So I can see an use for a non-English IDE only in teaching young
children, which cannot read English documentation. OTOH it may be more
the *teachers* having problems with English, the kids will learn new
terms much faster than they can. And why explain the meaning of "Datei"
or "Bearbeiten", which are not understood intuitively in a top-level
menu, when the same explanation also applies to "File" or "Edit"?

DoDi


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