[Lazarus] Off-topic: Debian vs Ubuntu

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[Lazarus] Off-topic: Debian vs Ubuntu

Graeme Geldenhuys
Hi,

While following some of the discussion about "FPC and Lazarus on ARM" it
made me think of a question I wanted to ask any Linux users, and I know
here are quite a few.

Is it only Ubuntu that cannibalized the Linux run-levels beyond
recognition, or is the same thing done in Debian too? I have zero
experience with Debian.

eg:
  * Ubuntu doesn't have the standard run-levels defined like normal
    Linux distros (eg: Slackware, Fedora etc) have.
     - There is no "Multiuser without NFS" - run-level 2
     - No "Full Multiuser mode" console login - run-level 3
     - X11 - run-level 5
    In Ubuntu run-levels 2-5 are all the same thing. F**ken stupid!

  * Ubuntu use something called upstart which seems to have no editor
    or any logic behind controlling what should start when. Run-Levels
    have worked fine for decades, so why did Ubuntu have to break it!


On a side note:
---------------

  [warning: ranting on, so you might want to stop reading here]

In recent weeks I have been taking a look at various Linux distros again
- something I haven't really done for the last 8 years. Just to see what
is out there, because I have been using Ubuntu as my sole Linux distro
since 6.06. Overall, it seems Linux distros are getting worse and worse
with every release.

   * They can't standardize on a technology. Lets take audio. First
     something else, then OSS, then ALSA, then PulseAudio... what next,
     and in how many months? A technology can never mature under Linux.
   * DBUS, HAL etc is in the same boat as audio. Technology used keeps
     changing every few months, so something totaly different and
     untested.
   * All recent distros seem to have screwed-up audio. How damn difficult
     can it be??? It just works under Mac OS X, Windows, Haiku, OS/2
     etc.. I tried Fedora 14, Ubuntu 10.04... My audio mixer volume
     settings are all set at 100%, yet I can hardly hear anything when
     an application plays sound. This used to work just fine in Ubuntu
     8.04.4, on the exact same system!
   * Switching desktop environments (Gnome -> KDE) on the same system
     gives me totally different audio levels!
   * KDE 4.x is rubbish compared to KDE 3.5 (it's like Vista for Linux)
   * Gnome is getting slower by the minute!
   * X11 seems overall slower than a few year back.
   * Fonts look totally different between KDE, Gnome etc when switching
     desktop environments on the same system. How damn hard can this
     really be as well, to get a consistent end-user experience... after
     all, they all run on the same X11 GUI.
   * Newer distros can now successfully make my P4 3Ghz laptop with 2GB
     memory and a 128MB ATI Radeon video card come to a crawl - with a
     new install! Where are the days when Linux was fast and nippy! Even
     Windows 7 runs faster on that system than Linux.

I'm seriously running out of OS options here. Linux is frustrating the
hell out of me. Mac OS X doesn't run on my PC system. Windows is not
something I want to go back to, after experiencing the flexibility that
Linux had to offer. Haiku has great potential, but still to young for a
day-to-day work system. Maybe it's time I go back to my typewriter - it
never crashed on me, and the audio level (clicking sound as you type)
was at a consistent level even when I changed paper or the ribbon. :-)


Regards,
   - Graeme -

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fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/


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Re: [Lazarus] Off-topic: Debian vs Ubuntu

Michael Schnell
On 03/29/2011 09:47 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> Hi,
>
> While following some of the discussion about "FPC and Lazarus on ARM"
> it made me think of a question I wanted to ask any Linux users, and I
> know here are quite a few.
>
> Is it only Ubuntu that cannibalized the Linux run-levels beyond
> recognition, or is the same thing done in Debian too? I have zero
> experience with Debian.
I just upgraded form Suse 11.1 ... 11.3 to Suse 11.4 on several Desktops
an Servers. I'm quite happy right now. Since yesterday I happily run
Debian on an old small Slug to have it work as a NAS.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Off-topic: Debian vs Ubuntu

Graeme Geldenhuys
On 29/03/2011 09:58, Michael Schnell wrote:
> I just upgraded form Suse 11.1 ... 11.3 to Suse 11.4 on several Desktops
> an Servers. I'm quite happy right now.

I used to run Suse back when 8.0 and 9.2 was out. Then it was a KDE only
distro (the only KDE distro I ever tried). I believe it is now a Gnome
distro (mainly), but I just had a quick look and see they have a KDE
version too. Any suggestion on which to choose?  Is Suse deb or rpm
based?  Does it have normal run-levels defined?


> Since yesterday I happily run
> Debian on an old small Slug to have it work as a NAS.

That's what made me think that I must maybe try Debian directly. I quite
like deb packages and the apt system (and use AptOnCD a lot), and got
used to the Debian filesystem layout/design from working with Ubuntu.
But lately Ubuntu seems to be going off it's rockers.



Regards,
   - Graeme -

--
fpGUI Toolkit - a cross-platform GUI toolkit using Free Pascal
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/


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Re: [Lazarus] Off-topic: Debian vs Ubuntu

Florian Klämpfl
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Am 29.03.2011 09:47, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:
> Hi,
>
> While following some of the discussion about "FPC and Lazarus on ARM" it
> made me think of a question I wanted to ask any Linux users, and I know
> here are quite a few.
>
> Is it only Ubuntu that cannibalized the Linux run-levels beyond
> recognition, or is the same thing done in Debian too?

I think the Debian policy is that you should configure yourself the
runlevels 2-5 as you need.

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Re: [Lazarus] Off-topic: Debian vs Ubuntu

Vincent Snijders
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
2011/3/29 Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]>:
> Hi,
>
> While following some of the discussion about "FPC and Lazarus on ARM" it
> made me think of a question I wanted to ask any Linux users, and I know here
> are quite a few.

Still, it is off-topic.

Please use the lazarus-other mailing list for mail not about Lazarus
targeted at Lazarus users:
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus-other

Vincent

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Re: [Lazarus] Off-topic: Debian vs Ubuntu

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
On 03/29/2011 10:13 AM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> I believe it is now a Gnome distro (mainly), but I just had a quick
> look and see they have a KDE version too. Any suggestion on which to
> choose?
You have several Desktop choices out of the Box: KDE, Gnome and some
small ones. I use KDE on the Workstations and just "init 3" in the
servers (sometimes attaching graphically via NX)
>  Is Suse deb or rpm based?
RPM
> Does it have normal run-levels defined?
you have B (boot), 1(single user) , 2 (multi user), 3 (multi-user with
network), 5 multi-user with network and GUI, and 6 (shutdown)
>> Since yesterday I happily run
>> Debian on an old small Slug to have it work as a NAS.
>
> That's what made me think that I must maybe try Debian directly. I
> quite like deb packages and the apt system (and use AptOnCD a lot),
> and got used to the Debian filesystem layout/design from working with
> Ubuntu. But lately Ubuntu seems to be going off it's rockers.
I of course did use apt to install and upgrade the system, but I only
followed the instructions I found. The file system layout seem quite
similar with Suse and Debian.Debian is lacking the rcxxx scripts
pointing to /etc/init.d/xxx, but you can easily create them or just go
"/etc/init.d/xxx"instead. The run level scrips in /etc/init.d/xx scripts
themselves seem to work quite similar.

-Michael

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