[Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

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[Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Jürgen Hestermann
I saw that quite a lot of keyboard shortcuts in Lazarus use Ctrl+Alt combos.
On Windows this is not a good idea because (system wide) user shortcuts
for programs on the desktop use Ctrl+Alt combos too so they conflict with each other.
Is it realy necessary to use Ctrl+Alt combos?
I think there should be enough Ctrl+Shift and Alt+Shift combos available for all functions.
But maybe it's already too late to change this.

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Sven Barth
Am 07.08.2012 17:20, schrieb Jürgen Hestermann:
> I saw that quite a lot of keyboard shortcuts in Lazarus use Ctrl+Alt
> combos.
> On Windows this is not a good idea because (system wide) user shortcuts
> for programs on the desktop use Ctrl+Alt combos too so they conflict
> with each other.
> Is it realy necessary to use Ctrl+Alt combos?
> I think there should be enough Ctrl+Shift and Alt+Shift combos available
> for all functions.
> But maybe it's already too late to change this.

There's nothing stopping you from changing the keyboard layout.

Also Windows is not the only platform where there exists conflicts. E.g.
in some desktop environments the Ctrl+Fx keys are set to switching the
desktop while in Lazarus Ctrl+F2 is used for stopping an application run
and Ctrl+F9 for doing a compilation...

So in my personal opinion: leave the defaults as they are. We won't ever
please everyone fully... [also not everyone uses shortcut combos on Windows]

Regards,
Sven


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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Hans-Peter Diettrich
In reply to this post by Jürgen Hestermann
Jürgen Hestermann schrieb:
> I saw that quite a lot of keyboard shortcuts in Lazarus use Ctrl+Alt
> combos.
> On Windows this is not a good idea because (system wide) user shortcuts
> for programs on the desktop use Ctrl+Alt combos too so they conflict
> with each other.
> Is it realy necessary to use Ctrl+Alt combos?

It's dangerous, because AltGr is also encoded as CTRL-ALT, when it comes
to shortcut testing.

DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Mattias Gaertner
On Tue, 07 Aug 2012 22:00:48 +0100
Hans-Peter Diettrich <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Jürgen Hestermann schrieb:
> > I saw that quite a lot of keyboard shortcuts in Lazarus use Ctrl+Alt
> > combos.
> > On Windows this is not a good idea because (system wide) user shortcuts
> > for programs on the desktop use Ctrl+Alt combos too so they conflict
> > with each other.
> > Is it realy necessary to use Ctrl+Alt combos?
>
> It's dangerous, because AltGr is also encoded as CTRL-ALT, when it comes
> to shortcut testing.

I doubt we can maintain different shortcut tables for different
keyboard layouts. The current table for MS Windows defines 232
shortcuts. Design time packages define their
own shortcuts.
Maybe someone knows an elegant solution to reduce the number of
conflicts.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Jürgen Hestermann
Am 2012-08-14 17:43, schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
 > I doubt we can maintain different shortcut tables for different keyboard layouts.
 > The current table for MS Windows defines 232 shortcuts.
 > Design time packages define their own shortcuts.
 > Maybe someone knows an elegant solution to reduce the number of conflicts.

Well, the only 'elegant' solution I can think of is to avoid Ctrl+Alt combos at all. There will always be unavoidable conficts with other software which uses system wide hotkeys but at least the OS shortcuts should be respected.

Of course, if this cannot be achieved (for all platforms or at least for Windows only) then I don't believe that there is a solution.


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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Graeme Geldenhuys
On 14 August 2012 17:49, Jürgen Hestermann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Well, the only 'elegant' solution I can think of is to avoid Ctrl+Alt combos
> at all. There will always be unavoidable conficts with other software which
> uses system wide hotkeys but at least the OS shortcuts should be respected.


In that case Ctrl should be avoided too, because Ctrl is often used in
KDE & Gnome shortcuts.... See how rediculous this is becoming! As
Mattias said, there is NO easy solution. Lazarus DOES allow you to
redefine shortcuts, so does your OS. So YOU decided what is more
important to you - the OS shortcut or the Lazarus one, then simply
undefine the others.

Lazarus developers under KDE & Gnome have been doing this for years.
The Ctrl+F<n> keys are often used to change virtual desktops, so we
simply disable those in KDE & Gnome, because the Lazarus IDE ones are
more important to us. Don't be lazy.

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Michael Van Canneyt


On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> On 14 August 2012 17:49, Jürgen Hestermann <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Well, the only 'elegant' solution I can think of is to avoid Ctrl+Alt combos
>> at all. There will always be unavoidable conficts with other software which
>> uses system wide hotkeys but at least the OS shortcuts should be respected.
>
>
> In that case Ctrl should be avoided too, because Ctrl is often used in
> KDE & Gnome shortcuts.... See how rediculous this is becoming! As
> Mattias said, there is NO easy solution. Lazarus DOES allow you to
> redefine shortcuts, so does your OS. So YOU decided what is more
> important to you - the OS shortcut or the Lazarus one, then simply
> undefine the others.
>
> Lazarus developers under KDE & Gnome have been doing this for years.
> The Ctrl+F<n> keys are often used to change virtual desktops, so we
> simply disable those in KDE & Gnome, because the Lazarus IDE ones are
> more important to us. Don't be lazy.
I agree with Graeme. Lazarus offers you the option, please use it.

It's simply not possible to find a set of shortcuts that is guaranteed
to work on all systems. I think that internal consistency of lazarus is
more important.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Reinier Olislagers
On 14-8-2012 20:52, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>> Lazarus developers under KDE & Gnome have been doing this for years.
>> The Ctrl+F<n> keys are often used to change virtual desktops, so we
>> simply disable those in KDE & Gnome, because the Lazarus IDE ones are
>> more important to us. Don't be lazy.
>
> I agree with Graeme. Lazarus offers you the option, please use it.
>
> It's simply not possible to find a set of shortcuts that is guaranteed
> to work on all systems. I think that internal consistency of lazarus is
> more important.
>
> Michael.

SCNR...
Perhaps some tool called, say lazset*), could be created and used to
set/change key shortcuts, e.g.:

lazset --primary-config-path=c:\example\whatever
--set="ContextSensitiveHelpKey=ShiftF1"

or e.g.
lazset --primary-config-path=c:\example\whatever
--set="ContextSensitiveHelpKey="
or
lazset --primary-config-path=c:\example\whatever
--delete="ContextSensitiveHelpKey"

... which would use the existing IDE code (same way lazbuild does) and
that could be automated in e.g. a batch file or even an installer (e.g.
only called when KDE is detected/selected).

A school, company, organization or user could maintain scripts that
change these settings after each new install/upgrade, these scripts
could be made available in the CCR or Lazarus repository, on the forum,
etc...

Regards,
Reinier

*) Yes, the same as my suggestion in Martin's IDE language thread

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Martin Frb
On 14/08/2012 20:10, Reinier Olislagers wrote:

> On 14-8-2012 20:52, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
>>> Lazarus developers under KDE & Gnome have been doing this for years.
>>> The Ctrl+F<n> keys are often used to change virtual desktops, so we
>>> simply disable those in KDE & Gnome, because the Lazarus IDE ones are
>>> more important to us. Don't be lazy.
>> I agree with Graeme. Lazarus offers you the option, please use it.
>>
>> It's simply not possible to find a set of shortcuts that is guaranteed
>> to work on all systems. I think that internal consistency of lazarus is
>> more important.
>>
>> Michael.
> SCNR...
> Perhaps some tool called, say lazset*), could be created and used to
> set/change key shortcuts, e.g.:

LazSet should only be for very selected, special options (like path to
fpc). Otherwise it will need too much maintenance, and soon be unusable....

Besides: Like for other settings (color) an import/export facility
(Patches welcome) could be written.
The exported layout can (if implemented) be copied into userschemes, and
can hen be selected (or if need is, lazset (if implemented) can preset it.




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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Hans-Peter Diettrich
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
Michael Van Canneyt schrieb:

>> Lazarus developers under KDE & Gnome have been doing this for years.
>> The Ctrl+F<n> keys are often used to change virtual desktops, so we
>> simply disable those in KDE & Gnome, because the Lazarus IDE ones are
>> more important to us. Don't be lazy.
>
> I agree with Graeme. Lazarus offers you the option, please use it.
>
> It's simply not possible to find a set of shortcuts that is guaranteed
> to work on all systems. I think that internal consistency of lazarus is
> more important.

Just an idea:

Delphi allows for selectable editor emulations, with different
shortcuts. Lazarus could supply different shortcut maps for every
desktop. The only "inconsistency" would arise in communication and
documentation, where the default Lazarus shortcuts should be used.

DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Mattias Gaertner
In reply to this post by Reinier Olislagers
On Tue, 14 Aug 2012 21:10:26 +0200
Reinier Olislagers <[hidden email]> wrote:

> On 14-8-2012 20:52, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
> > On Tue, 14 Aug 2012, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:
> >> Lazarus developers under KDE & Gnome have been doing this for years.
> >> The Ctrl+F<n> keys are often used to change virtual desktops, so we
> >> simply disable those in KDE & Gnome, because the Lazarus IDE ones are
> >> more important to us. Don't be lazy.
> >
> > I agree with Graeme. Lazarus offers you the option, please use it.
> >
> > It's simply not possible to find a set of shortcuts that is guaranteed
> > to work on all systems. I think that internal consistency of lazarus is
> > more important.
> >
> > Michael.
>
> SCNR...
> Perhaps some tool called, say lazset*), could be created and used to
> set/change key shortcuts, e.g.:
>
> lazset --primary-config-path=c:\example\whatever
> --set="ContextSensitiveHelpKey=ShiftF1"
>
> or e.g.
> lazset --primary-config-path=c:\example\whatever
> --set="ContextSensitiveHelpKey="
> or
> lazset --primary-config-path=c:\example\whatever
> --delete="ContextSensitiveHelpKey"
>
> ... which would use the existing IDE code (same way lazbuild does) and
> that could be automated in e.g. a batch file or even an installer (e.g.
> only called when KDE is detected/selected).
>
> A school, company, organization or user could maintain scripts that
> change these settings after each new install/upgrade, these scripts
> could be made available in the CCR or Lazarus repository, on the forum,
> etc...

Changing the defaults for schools, pools, multi user environments is
already possible. Just put your editoroptions.xml into the secondary
config directory.


Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by Reinier Olislagers
On 14 August 2012 20:10, Reinier Olislagers <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Perhaps some tool called, say lazset*), could be created and used to
> set/change key shortcuts, e.g.:
>
> lazset --primary-config-path=c:\example\whatever
> --set="ContextSensitiveHelpKey=ShiftF1"


That is making a mountain out of a mole heap. The problem of this
thread is not really a problem at all. Changing shortcuts are quick
and easy already.


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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by Martin Frb
On 14 August 2012 20:47, Martin <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Besides: Like for other settings (color) an import/export facility (Patches
> welcome) could be written.


MSEide has such an import/export of settings function and it works
very well. For large installation rollouts of Lazarus (though I don't
think this exists), such a feature could help with the shortcuts
issue. But again, this looks like a damn lot of effort, for something
that can already be fixed very quickly - simply redefine the shortcut
in Lazarus or KDE/Gnome/Windows.


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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Reinier Olislagers
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
On 15-8-2012 0:49, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> On 14 August 2012 20:10, Reinier Olislagers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> Perhaps some tool called, say lazset*), could be created and used to
>> set/change key shortcuts, e.g.:
>>
>> lazset --primary-config-path=c:\example\whatever
>> --set="ContextSensitiveHelpKey=ShiftF1"
>
>
> That is making a mountain out of a mole heap. The problem of this
> thread is not really a problem at all. Changing shortcuts are quick
> and easy already.

Morning all,

@Martin: having an export (and import?) utility that needs to be
maintained as well versus a settings tool that needs to be maintained
wouldn't be too much difference, I'd think?
Perhaps the color export utility could be
modified/adapted/copied/expanded (whatever) though - wasn't aware of
that one; will take a look, thanks.

@Mattias: yes, you're right, you can modify the xml file. Then you'd get
into scripting that changes xml files. Not something I'd look forward to
as an admin, but certainly doable. To each his own, I'd guess.

@Graeme: just like all help problems have a DocView solution for you, so
do all configuration problems have a LazSet solution for me;)
More seriously: I've been thinking about a tool like this for a while
now and while this problem may not be that big/relevant, it does fit in
with the rest of my ideas.


Regards,
Reinier

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Mattias Gaertner
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:18:15 +0200
Reinier Olislagers <[hidden email]> wrote:

>[...]
> @Mattias: yes, you're right, you can modify the xml file. Then you'd get
> into scripting that changes xml files. Not something I'd look forward to
> as an admin, but certainly doable. To each his own, I'd guess.

You don't need to edit the xml file directly.
You can simply use the IDE to setup the keys as you want and then copy
the editoroptions.xml to the target's machine /etc/lazarus folder. When
the pupil starts the IDE for the first time he gets your keys.
And can alter them.
It's the same for any options of the IDE.

Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Reinier Olislagers
On 15-8-2012 9:22, Mattias Gaertner wrote:

> On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 08:18:15 +0200
> Reinier Olislagers <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>> [...]
>> @Mattias: yes, you're right, you can modify the xml file. Then you'd get
>> into scripting that changes xml files. Not something I'd look forward to
>> as an admin, but certainly doable. To each his own, I'd guess.
>
> You don't need to edit the xml file directly.
> You can simply use the IDE to setup the keys as you want and then copy
> the editoroptions.xml to the target's machine /etc/lazarus folder. When
> the pupil starts the IDE for the first time he gets your keys.
> And can alter them.
> It's the same for any options of the IDE.
>
> Mattias
Thanks, Mattias.

I was having trouble seeing how parts of environmentoptions.xml could be
edited/set while leaving others alone (e.g. set compiler path, leave
other settings alone)... but probably my aversion to XML files is
playing up again and there might be many tools that already provide for
merging XML files...

Regards,
Reinier


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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Jürgen Hestermann
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Am 2012-08-14 20:45, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:
 > In that case Ctrl should be avoided too, because Ctrl is often used in
 > KDE & Gnome shortcuts.... See how rediculous this is becoming!

As I wrote: If it is not possible to define different (standard) shortcuts for each platform (thereby avoiding OS wide shortcuts) then there will be no solution.


 > As Mattias said, there is NO easy solution.

He wrote:
 > Maybe someone knows an elegant solution to reduce the number of conflicts.
He did not write that such a solution does not exist. Just asking for one.



 > Lazarus DOES allow you to
 > redefine shortcuts, so does your OS. So YOU decided what is more
 > important to you - the OS shortcut or the Lazarus one, then simply
 > undefine the others.

Of course. But *if* a solution to the problem exists this would be avoidable. So why not do it then?


 > Don't be lazy.
What does this have to do with laziness? Then you can say that no shortcuts should be defined at all. They can all be configured by the user. And if he complains, just say: Don't be lazy! Rediculous.


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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Jürgen Hestermann
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Am 2012-08-14 20:45, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:
> Lazarus DOES allow you to redefine shortcuts, so does your OS. So YOU decided what is more important to you - the OS shortcut or the Lazarus one, then simply undefine the others.

Another aspect of this is that I have multiple machines where I use Lazarus/Free Pascal (at home and at work) and I often use the daily snapshots to reinstall Lazarus on them. Afterwards I often find that my settings are reset and I have to do the configuration over and over again. You may answer that there is some XML file somewhere that I only have to save before upgrading but neither do I know all these (many) files and their purpose nor do I *want* to know about them. All I want is a (Pascal) programming tool that lets me think about programming which does not eat up lots of time to bother with its settings instead.



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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Mattias Gaertner
On Wed, 15 Aug 2012 11:01:05 +0200
Jürgen Hestermann <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Am 2012-08-14 20:45, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:
> > Lazarus DOES allow you to redefine shortcuts, so does your OS. So YOU decided what is more important to you - the OS shortcut or the Lazarus one, then simply undefine the others.
>
> Another aspect of this is that I have multiple machines where I use Lazarus/Free Pascal (at home and at work) and I often use the daily snapshots to reinstall Lazarus on them. Afterwards I often find that my settings are reset and I have to do the configuration over and over again.

The IDE does not reset configs on itself.
Maybe the installer does?


> You may answer that there is some XML file somewhere that I only have
> to save before upgrading but neither do I know all these (many) files
> and their purpose nor do I *want* to know about them. All I want is a
> (Pascal) programming tool that lets me think about programming which
> does not eat up lots of time to bother with its settings instead.


Mattias

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Re: [Lazarus] Lazarus shortcuts conflict with windows shortcuts

Jürgen Hestermann


Am 2012-08-15 11:17, schrieb Mattias Gaertner:
> The IDE does not reset configs on itself. Maybe the installer does?

I think the settings are not reset after each update. But I had several situations where I got an startup error message after a certain upgrade which I could only get rid of by renaming the path "C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\Jürgen\Lokale Einstellungen\Anwendungsdaten\lazarus" (which I was not even aware of that it exists and that it holds my settings). Afterwards all settings were gone. I had to do this on multiple machines.

When updating I am also asked whether "D:\Programme\lazarus\environmentoptions.xml" (why is this file located in the installation directory?) should be updated. I was under the impression that this file holds all my settings but only recently found out the editor settings are in "C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\<user>\Lokale Einstellungen\Anwendungsdaten\lazarus\editoroptions.xml". What a nighmare of scattered settings. In "C:\Dokumente und Einstellungen\<user>\Lokale Einstellungen\Anwendungsdaten\lazarus" a file environmentoptions.xml exists too. Which one is used? There are 11 XML files in this directory. Are they all config files? Are other (non-XML files) configure something? This all is something the user should not bother about. I find it way too confusing. There should be only one config file with paths (which may be different on different machines) and one for *all* settings regarding Lazarus. But this seems to have evolved over time and cannot be changed back now.


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