[Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

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[Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

vfclists .
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

dmitry boyarintsev
Nice!

There was something similar 1-2 years ago in Great Britain, where education commission recognized pascal languages (Delphi) as the best for education.

So the next generation of good developers will come from South Africa.
The Department of Education will purchase Delphi and students (and graduates) will be able to use FOSS solution like FPC/Lazarus.

Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense.

thanks,
Dmitry

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Dave Coventry
In reply to this post by vfclists .
Debate on here, if anyone's interested in contributing:

http://mybroadband.co.za/vb/showthread.php/565779-Delphi-and-MS-Office-forced-on-South-African-schools/page4

On 11 October 2013 21:18, vfclists . <[hidden email]> wrote:

> You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?
>
> Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA
> Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in
> contradiction of government's own policy
>
>
> http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123
>
> --
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>
> =======================
> http://devblog.brahmancreations.com
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Benito van der Zander
In reply to this post by vfclists .
Well at least they are mandating Delphi.

Could be worse, could be Visual Basic...


On 10/11/2013 09:18 PM, vfclists . wrote:


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Nikolay Nikolov
In reply to this post by vfclists .
On 10/11/2013 10:18 PM, vfclists . wrote:

Ewwwwwwww:

"Python, PHP, Java, Javascript... any 21st Century language would be better than Delphi. Any. Any at all."

I just don't know what to say...

Nikolay

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

vfclists .
In reply to this post by vfclists .
I suspect is its a trick to introduce Linux by the back door. If their Delphi programs can easily be switched to Lazarus the software will be easy to convert to Linux and the Mac

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

leledumbo
Administrator
In reply to this post by vfclists .
3-4 comments to help promoting Lazarus/Free Pascal to them. Mind to help as well, guys?
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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Dave Coventry
On 12 October 2013 04:21, leledumbo <[hidden email]> wrote:
> 3-4 comments to help promoting Lazarus/Free Pascal to them. Mind to help as
> well, guys?

Yes, one of them would be me. (Rinkhals).

Graeme will confirm that there is a lot of Microsoft-centric sentiment
here and that open source is largely regarded with suspicion.

"You get what you pay for" is a phrase I hear a lot.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by vfclists .
On 11/10/13 20:18, vfclists . wrote:
> You couldn't make this up. Is it a joke or not?

One of the comments sum it up perfectly:  "kickbacks rule once again...
who gives a ---- about the kids..."


Lets just hope this was a bad joke.


Regards,
  G.



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Graeme Geldenhuys-2
In reply to this post by Dave Coventry
On 12/10/13 07:00, Dave Coventry wrote:
>
> Graeme will confirm that there is a lot of Microsoft-centric sentiment
> here and that open source is largely regarded with suspicion.

The "MS Office mandate" is what is really confusing me. The South
African government was always very pro to open source products and open
standards. eg: using ODT file format for official government documents.
The [Mark] Shuttleworth Foundation also did (or does - the last time I
checked) fantastic work in South Africa, promoting open source and free
alternatives like Ubuntu, Edubuntu, and setting up teaching centres etc.

But this behaviour is typical South African government. The one hand has
no idea what the other is doing!

Regards,
  Graeme


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Dave Coventry
On 12 October 2013 09:44, Graeme Geldenhuys <[hidden email]> wrote:
> But this behaviour is typical South African government. The one hand has
> no idea what the other is doing!

I'm afraid that corruption is rife in the Education Department, too,
so some kind of ministerial incentive from Microsoft cannot be ruled
out.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by vfclists .
On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 08:18:16PM +0100, vfclists . wrote:
> Department of Basic Education bans Free and Open Source Software in SA
> Schools and mandates programming an ancient, moribund language in
> contradiction of government's own policy <http://twitter.com/share>
>
> http://dkeats.com/index.php?module=blog&action=viewsingle&postid=gen21Srv8Nme0_40332_1381256759&userid=7050120123

Makes the classic mistake of assuming there is no difference between chosing
a certain approach/tool/whatever for educational purposes and the use of
that particular approach/tool after graduation.

Remember, this is basic education.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by dmitry boyarintsev
On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 05:28:33PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> There was something similar 1-2 years ago in Great Britain, where education
> commission recognized pascal languages (Delphi) as the best for education.
>
> So the next generation of good developers will come from South Africa.
> The Department of Education will purchase Delphi and students (and
> graduates) will be able to use FOSS solution like FPC/Lazarus.
>
> Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense.

One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
instant-gratification.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Dave Coventry
On 12 October 2013 13:36, Marco van de Voort <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
> instant-gratification.
>

My view is that instant gratification is the key.

Once they see how easy it is to produce an application, some will look
to develop the possibilities.

The ones that get side tracked by making the Forms pretty; well,
they'll probably concentrate on web design.

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Jürgen Hestermann
In reply to this post by Marco van de Voort
Am 2013-10-12 13:36, schrieb Marco van de Voort:
 > One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
 > choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
 > their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.
 > Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
 > instant-gratification.

Yes, that's true.
But as always when learning the best motivation is rapid success.
And learning without beeing able to make use of it is not useful.
So a developement envrionment that lets you create a GUI program quickly is neccessary IMO.
Although the language is only one part (libraries and IDE are nearly as important)
it is still usefull to choose a clear and easy to learn language so I also would
recommend to use Pascal at School (and of course in "real life" too if possible).

The question is: Why *not* use Pascal?
There maybe constraints that forces you to use another language later on
but at School this is not the case (in general).
And pupils should know how easy and clear a fast programming can be
to judge all other awkward or slow languages so they *need* to know Pascal.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Hans-Peter Diettrich
In reply to this post by Marco van de Voort
Marco van de Voort schrieb:

> One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
> choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
> their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.

What's a form worth without a task and event handlers?

> Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
> instant-gratification.

Modern (portable) devices are GUI based, so that mastering a GUI is
important. Not everybody likes to control the progress and results of
some task by writing WriteLn statements, so that a GUI *in addition* to
console applications is a good base for all students.

DoDi


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

wkitty42
In reply to this post by vfclists .

On Saturday, October 12, 2013 7:36 AM, Marco van de Voort <[hidden email]> wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 11, 2013 at 05:28:33PM -0400, Dmitry Boyarintsev wrote:
> > Another proof, that pascal is the language that makes sense.
>  
> One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
> choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
> their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.
>  
> Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
> instant-gratification.

we've been seeing this for what? 20 years, now? even m$ operates in the mind set of "a pretty interface trumps (unseen) sickness and disease" al la "yeah, i'd hit that unless someone tells me it has an STD... even then, i still might hit it" al la "we've redone the GUI to make it prettier but the seedy underworld of skiddies and hackers can still get in thru the same holes they've been using for the last decade" :lol: :angel_horns:



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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by Hans-Peter Diettrich
On Sat, Oct 12, 2013 at 02:51:31PM +0200, Hans-Peter Diettrich wrote:
> > One could argue about language, but Delphi as RAD-IDE is definitely not a good
> > choice. Students tend to overfocus on embellishing forms etc, and not spending
> > their time on the more problem-solving oriented assignment.
>
> What's a form worth without a task and event handlers?

(essentially to all replyers)

The course changed from TP to Delphi (as tool) and suddenly a lot more time
was spend on non-programming.

Not everything vaguely related (to IT) is part of a /programmer's/ course.
We knew students could click around in GUIs just fine. That was not what the
course was about.

Btw, the course abandonned TP because too many students were unfamiliar
with the concept of console apps. Explaining it took a too large part of the
course, and due to its (101) nature it had to be early in the curriculum.

> > Probably because dolling up the UI is easier and gives
> > instant-gratification.
>
> Modern (portable) devices are GUI based

I hope they use it in the Mobile development class then. This was not the
mobile development class. This was introduction to programming (not UI
design, not Mobile, not, not, ...) :-)

So the idea is that the students, euh, spend their time programming.


Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good
educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not
contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.


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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

dmitry boyarintsev

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Marco van de Voort <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good
educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not
contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.

How come TP (turbo pascal?!) is not a quick start tool? (despite the fact the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os).

thanks,
Dmitry 

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Re: [Lazarus] Graeme would love this, or not, I think

dmitry boyarintsev
Well, after all if it's basic course, should they use something from "Children" list of this page?

Surprisingly, pascal is the only in "historical" section. 



On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 5:14 PM, Dmitry Boyarintsev <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Sun, Oct 13, 2013 at 3:14 PM, Marco van de Voort <[hidden email]> wrote:
Anyway, the whole post was meant more or less as an argument that a good
educational tool should 1) be quick to start using (so not TP) 2) not
contain parts that are not part of the course and detract too much.

How come TP (turbo pascal?!) is not a quick start tool? (despite the fact the old dos application will have problems running or a modern os).

thanks,
Dmitry 


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