[Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

classic Classic list List threaded Threaded
83 messages Options
12345
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

[Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Howard Page-Clark
If you have not seen it, users of Delphi XE2 may be interested to read
Delphi Product Manager JT's blog about what Embarcadero are working on
for native Android and iOS development (which won't be in the
forthcoming XE3 release - it's all further ahead than that), dropping
FPC in favour of another open source toolchain and their own new
debugger, revamped FireMonkey etc.

http://blogs.embarcadero.com/jtembarcadero/2012/08/20/xe3-and-beyond/

Howard

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Howard Page-Clark <[hidden email]> wrote:
> dropping FPC in favour of
> another open source toolchain and their own new debugger, revamped
> FireMonkey etc.

Why do you say "another open source"? I haven't seen anything saying
that the new toolchain is open source. And I don't know any open
source toolchain which could do what they offer.

--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Howard Page-Clark
On 08/21/2012 01:01 PM, Howard Page-Clark wrote:
>
> http://blogs.embarcadero.com/jtembarcadero/2012/08/20/xe3-and-beyond/
>
Besides, technically, I read that Objects will become reference counting
and thus ".Free" gets obsolete (like in Prism).

-Michael

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Sven Barth
In reply to this post by Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
Am 22.08.2012 11:18, schrieb Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho:
> On Tue, Aug 21, 2012 at 1:01 PM, Howard Page-Clark <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> dropping FPC in favour of
>> another open source toolchain and their own new debugger, revamped
>> FireMonkey etc.
>
> Why do you say "another open source"? I haven't seen anything saying
> that the new toolchain is open source. And I don't know any open
> source toolchain which could do what they offer.
>

They plan to use LLVM (though this is not mentioned in that roadmap
article).

Regards,
Sven

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Michael Schnell
On 08/22/2012 11:44 AM, Sven Barth wrote:
>
> They plan to use LLVM (though this is not mentioned in that roadmap
> article).
>
Regarding the multiple request I read in the past in the FPC forums to
move FPC to use a "standard" backend (such as LLVM), this seems like a
rather logical move (also regarding that it seems to be rather undoable
to use GNU as a backend for an Object Pascal compiler).

-Michael

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
In reply to this post by Sven Barth
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Sven Barth
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> They plan to use LLVM (though this is not mentioned in that roadmap
> article).

I wonder if this means that the resulting compiler will be open
source. I don't know anything about the licensing of LLVM, but they
could require front-ends to be open source.

--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Anders E. Andersen
Den 22-08-2012 12:32, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho skrev:
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Sven Barth
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> They plan to use LLVM (though this is not mentioned in that roadmap
>> article).
> I wonder if this means that the resulting compiler will be open
> source. I don't know anything about the licensing of LLVM, but they
> could require front-ends to be open source.
>
It wont. The license is very permissive. All it requires you to do is
retain the copyright notice. Essentially you have to say 'I made this
compiler using LLVM' somewhere.

http://llvm.org/releases/3.1/LICENSE.TXT

Anders

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Sven Barth
In reply to this post by Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
Am 22.08.2012 12:32, schrieb Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho:
> On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:44 AM, Sven Barth
> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> They plan to use LLVM (though this is not mentioned in that roadmap
>> article).
>
> I wonder if this means that the resulting compiler will be open
> source. I don't know anything about the licensing of LLVM, but they
> could require front-ends to be open source.
>

LLVM is extensively used and supported by Apple... that should give you
an answer ;)

Regards,
Sven

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Sven Barth
In reply to this post by Michael Schnell
Am 22.08.2012 12:08, schrieb Michael Schnell:
> On 08/22/2012 11:44 AM, Sven Barth wrote:
>>
>> They plan to use LLVM (though this is not mentioned in that roadmap
>> article).
>>
> Regarding the multiple request I read in the past in the FPC forums to
> move FPC to use a "standard" backend (such as LLVM), this seems like a
> rather logical move (also regarding that it seems to be rather undoable
> to use GNU as a backend for an Object Pascal compiler).

Free Pascal will never move solely to a backend like LLVM. A part of the
reason is that not all platform-os combinations are supported by LLVM
that are supported by FPC. Also Florian does not look like he wants to
give up fiddling around in the backend ^^

Regards,
Sven


--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Michael Schnell
On 08/22/2012 02:39 PM, Sven Barth wrote:
>
> Free Pascal will never move solely to a backend like LLVM.

That is what I learned in the forum already long ago :). I did not
intend advocate LLVM over the current Pascal based backend, but I wanted
to state that it seems like a logical move for Embarcadero, given that
they don't already have an ARM compiler of their own.

-Michael

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Chavoux Luyt
In reply to this post by Sven Barth
Sorry for a newbie question, but how is FPC connected to gcc anyways?
Doesn't it translate the (object) pascal code directly into the
various machine languages for the different platforms (Or into
assembler and then machine language)? Pascal, only needs a one-pass
compiler, making it by nature much faster to compile than C based
languages, so why would FPC use anything C or C++ (except for external
function calls to the OS API)?

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 3:41 PM, Chavoux Luyt <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Sorry for a newbie question, but how is FPC connected to gcc anyways?

It is not.

> Doesn't it translate the (object) pascal code directly into the
> various machine languages for the different platforms (Or into
> assembler and then machine language)?

It converts to assembler and then to machine code.

> Pascal, only needs a one-pass
> compiler, making it by nature much faster to compile than C based
> languages, so why would FPC use anything C or C++ (except for external
> function calls to the OS API)?

LLVM is not made only for C/C++, it is multi-language. Check wikipedia on LLVM

--
Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

leledumbo
Administrator
In reply to this post by Sven Barth
> They plan to use LLVM (though this is not mentioned in that roadmap article).

I've read this somewhere before, but AFAIK only for the C++ builder (they might create a Delphi frontend though, should be easy for them since Delphi compiler is written in C++).
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by Howard Page-Clark
On 21 August 2012 12:01, Howard Page-Clark <[hidden email]> wrote:
> If you have not seen it, users of Delphi XE2 may be interested to read

And the big news is that the soon to be launched XE3 will not ship
with FireMonkey or FPC or any iOS development tools for that matter.
Wow, I can see quite a few ISV's (eg TMS) being pretty pissed of now,
spending lots of money building 3rd party components for FireMonkey -
all for nothing!

Don't you just hate it when companies like Embarcadero use our hard
earned cash for their experiments.

--
Regards,
  - Graeme -


_______________________________________________
fpGUI - a cross-platform Free Pascal GUI toolkit
http://fpgui.sourceforge.net

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Sven Barth
Am 22.08.2012 19:09, schrieb Graeme Geldenhuys:

> On 21 August 2012 12:01, Howard Page-Clark <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> If you have not seen it, users of Delphi XE2 may be interested to read
>
> And the big news is that the soon to be launched XE3 will not ship
> with FireMonkey or FPC or any iOS development tools for that matter.
> Wow, I can see quite a few ISV's (eg TMS) being pretty pissed of now,
> spending lots of money building 3rd party components for FireMonkey -
> all for nothing!
>
> Don't you just hate it when companies like Embarcadero use our hard
> earned cash for their experiments.
>

Now you know why FPC tries to take backwards compatibility seriously ;)

Regards,
Sven

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Anders E. Andersen
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
Den 22-08-2012 19:09, Graeme Geldenhuys skrev:
> On 21 August 2012 12:01, Howard Page-Clark <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> If you have not seen it, users of Delphi XE2 may be interested to read
> And the big news is that the soon to be launched XE3 will not ship
> with FireMonkey or FPC or any iOS development tools for that matter.
> Wow, I can see quite a few ISV's (eg TMS) being pretty pissed of now,
> spending lots of money building 3rd party components for FireMonkey -
> all for nothing!
>

Where is your source for this? The blogs on the Embarcadero website puts
a lot of emphasis on the firemonkey components and as far as I have read
the framework will ship for both Windows and OSX from the get go. The
mobile platforms will be added at a later date.

Anders

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Sven Barth
Am 23.08.2012 09:50, schrieb Anders E. Andersen:

> Den 22-08-2012 19:09, Graeme Geldenhuys skrev:
>> On 21 August 2012 12:01, Howard Page-Clark <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> If you have not seen it, users of Delphi XE2 may be interested to read
>> And the big news is that the soon to be launched XE3 will not ship
>> with FireMonkey or FPC or any iOS development tools for that matter.
>> Wow, I can see quite a few ISV's (eg TMS) being pretty pissed of now,
>> spending lots of money building 3rd party components for FireMonkey -
>> all for nothing!
>>
>
> Where is your source for this? The blogs on the Embarcadero website puts
> a lot of emphasis on the firemonkey components and as far as I have read
> the framework will ship for both Windows and OSX from the get go. The
> mobile platforms will be added at a later date.

This "they will be added at a later date" is exactly the point. They
release a product as the successor to XE2 and leave those people in the
rain that already built upon the mobile components provided by XE2.

Regards,
Sven


--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Anders E. Andersen
Den 23-08-2012 10:37, Sven Barth skrev:
>> Where is your source for this? The blogs on the Embarcadero website puts
>> a lot of emphasis on the firemonkey components and as far as I have read
>> the framework will ship for both Windows and OSX from the get go. The
>> mobile platforms will be added at a later date.
>
>
> This "they will be added at a later date" is exactly the point. They
> release a product as the successor to XE2 and leave those people in
> the rain that already built upon the mobile components provided by XE2.

Well I haven't used XE2 myself, but the impression I get, both from
Embarcadero and from others, was that the mobile solution was not really
too userfriendly. You have to jump a not insignificant number of hoops
to get it running. Keeping that in mind I would guess that the number of
people that is actually affected by this delay is reasonably small. Also
keeping in mind that they are not cancelling anything, but just delaying
the mobile platform until they feel it is ready, I really think this is
a small issue. I would actually give Embarcadero credit for realizing
that part of their product is not quite ready and admitting it outright.

There are plenty of good reasons to be sceptical of Embarcaderos
handling of Delphi, but this isn't one of them, in my opinion anyway.

Anders

--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

William Oliveira Ferreira
In reply to this post by Anders E. Andersen
Many big companies do things like that! E.g: Enter on Microsoft Website, they will promote Windows 7 until Windows 8 be finally released...

2012/8/23 Anders E. Andersen <[hidden email]>
Den 22-08-2012 19:09, Graeme Geldenhuys skrev:

On 21 August 2012 12:01, Howard Page-Clark <[hidden email]> wrote:
If you have not seen it, users of Delphi XE2 may be interested to read
And the big news is that the soon to be launched XE3 will not ship
with FireMonkey or FPC or any iOS development tools for that matter.
Wow, I can see quite a few ISV's (eg TMS) being pretty pissed of now,
spending lots of money building 3rd party components for FireMonkey -
all for nothing!


Where is your source for this? The blogs on the Embarcadero website puts a lot of emphasis on the firemonkey components and as far as I have read the framework will ship for both Windows and OSX from the get go. The mobile platforms will be added at a later date.

Anders


--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus



--
________________________________
William de Oliveira Ferreira


--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
Reply | Threaded
Open this post in threaded view
|

Re: [Lazarus] Delphi post-XE3 roadmap

Marco van de Voort
In reply to this post by Michael Schnell
On Wed, Aug 22, 2012 at 11:44:14AM +0200, Michael Schnell wrote:
> On 08/21/2012 01:01 PM, Howard Page-Clark wrote:
> >
> > http://blogs.embarcadero.com/jtembarcadero/2012/08/20/xe3-and-beyond/
> >
> Besides, technically, I read that Objects will become reference counting
> and thus ".Free" gets obsolete (like in Prism).

I read that as that there will be ref counted objects, not that all objects
will be ref counted per se.


--
_______________________________________________
Lazarus mailing list
[hidden email]
http://lists.lazarus.freepascal.org/mailman/listinfo/lazarus
12345