[Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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[Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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Hi Guys,

This is just to give everybody that works on FPC or Lazarus a pat on the
back. Seriously, you guys are doing an *excellent* job. Even though I am
sometimes a bit hard on you guys.

Having moved back to Delphi (I'm using XE at the moment) for a
contracting job, I got to the realization how bad Delphi has become.
Compared to Lazarus IDE, Delphi IDE is a joke!!

[rant on]

My issues with Delphi IDE in the last two weeks:

  - Error Insight (red squiggles for Unknown Identifiers) is horribly
    broken. My code editor looks as if my 1 year old drew with a red
    marker all over the screen! More sad news - the IDE Product Manager
    of Delphi told me personally that the latest Delphi version is
    better, but there are still many false positives. Oh dear.

  - Delphi Project Manager window is useless!
    It has drag-n-drop and shows you a nice blue target drop location,
    but those are all fake features. You can't drag-n-drop units to
    reorganize your project.
    There is a kludge work-around - using F2 to rename a unit
    (but that too, only works sometimes) by giving it a relative path
    and file name. But then...
       - Delphi IDE doesn't update all references to the old units,
         in case of a unit rename.
       - Delphi IDE doesn't delete or rename the old DCU file, so
         have fun debugging code that doesn't seem to update, because
         it is silently using the old DCU file still lying around.
       - Delphi IDE doesn't sort the units after a rename. Hell,
         it's not even sorted after I restart the IDE or reload the
         project.

  - Delphi IDE is so SLOW to start up, and I'm running a beefy Intel i7
    with 32GB RAM.

  - You can't customise IDE shortcuts. What EMBT gives you is what
    you are forced to live with. I use a custom Dvorak keyboard layout,
    and many QWERTY-centric shortcuts are terrible to type using
    my keyboard layout. Lazarus allows me to customise them as needed.

  - Delphi IDE seems to randomly decide some files will contain
    BOM markers and others not. I still haven't figured out if there
    is actually any logic in the way it works.

  - Delphi compiler gives no hints on unused units.

  - Oh why is "Save Project As..." under the File menu and not the
    Project menu!

  - Delphi IDE doesn't have a keyboard shortcut for File -> Open!!!
    Have they not heard about Ctrl+O ???

  - No editor option to switch off "cursor past end of line" feature.


...and this is just the tip of the iceberg!!!

[rant off]


I promise, I'll never complain about Lazarus IDE or FPC again! :)
Long live open source development tools.


ps:
   There was ONE thing I did like about Delphi - the "File -> New ->
   XML Data Binding" option, where it generates interfaces and
   classes to work with XML data or a schema. That was pretty
   useful. Does Lazarus have something like that yet?


Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:

> I promise, I'll never complain about Lazarus IDE or FPC again! :)
> Long live open source development tools.

I have put this little snippet of text aside, so I can use it for future
reference ;)

>
>
> ps:
>   There was ONE thing I did like about Delphi - the "File -> New ->
>   XML Data Binding" option, where it generates interfaces and
>   classes to work with XML data or a schema. That was pretty
>   useful. Does Lazarus have something like that yet?

Not to my knowledge.
Having moved to JSON, I have written json2pas, which serves a similar
purpose, but a xml2pas is still on my todo list.

However, WST and the SDO toolkit (the latter in FPC) do provide something
similar. WST can be used to convert a XSD to pascal code.

Michael.

PS. Note 2 self: still need to insert json2pas in the json viewer tool.
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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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In reply to this post by Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
On 13.07.2017 2:11, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:
> There was ONE thing I did like about Delphi - the "File -> New ->
>   XML Data Binding" option, where it generates interfaces and
>   classes to work with XML data or a schema. That was pretty
>   useful. Does Lazarus have something like that yet?

OXml can do that for Lazarus (it's my commercial project):
http://www.kluug.net/oxml.php

Ondrej
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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
In reply to this post by Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
On 2017-07-13 06:54, Michael Van Canneyt via Lazarus wrote:
> I have put this little snippet of text aside, so I can use it for future
> reference ;)

Yeah, knowing this list [nobody here ever forgets], that is something
that going to bite me in the a** at some point. :)

Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On Thu, 13 Jul 2017, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:

> On 2017-07-13 06:54, Michael Van Canneyt via Lazarus wrote:
>> I have put this little snippet of text aside, so I can use it for future
>> reference ;)
>
> Yeah, knowing this list [nobody here ever forgets], that is something
> that going to bite me in the a** at some point. :)

Auntie Google has a long memory, and she likes to gossip :)

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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In reply to this post by Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
On 2017-07-13 07:22, Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus wrote:
> OXml can do that for Lazarus (it's my commercial project):
> http://www.kluug.net/oxml.php


Well done.


One small note...

   On that page it mentions "OXml supports Lazarus 1.0 and newer on all
platforms (tested Win32, Win64, Linux, MacOSX)." - that doesn't mean
much to anybody that uses Lazarus from SVN - a common option. Nowhere do
you mention what FPC versions are supported, though you do explicitly
mention what Delphi versions are supported. It would be very useful if
you can add the FPC version info too.  Just a thought.

Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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In reply to this post by Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
On Thu, Jul 13, 2017 at 01:11:32AM +0100, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:
> [rant on]
>
> My issues with Delphi IDE in the last two weeks:
>
>   - Error Insight (red squiggles for Unknown Identifiers) is horribly
>     broken. My code editor looks as if my 1 year old drew with a red
>     marker all over the screen! More sad news - the IDE Product Manager
>     of Delphi told me personally that the latest Delphi version is
>     better, but there are still many false positives. Oh dear.

My experience is the other way. Delphi (XE10) here, updates it live,
while lazarus needs a recompile.
 
>   - Delphi IDE is so SLOW to start up, and I'm running a beefy Intel i7
>     with 32GB RAM.

>   - No editor option to switch off "cursor past end of line" feature.

My biggest beef with Delphi is that it is confused by having ..\xxxx paths
in the search paths. They are interpreted as relative to the local
directory, not to the project. If you switch such projects with e.g.
"recent files" strange things may happen, but if you navigate with to the
.dproj with file->open project, then everything is ok (since that sets the
current dir for the Delphi application apparently)

This is an issue in D7, and still is in XE10 rainy city.
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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On 2017-07-20 12:04, Marco van de Voort via Lazarus wrote:
>>   - Error Insight (red squiggles for Unknown Identifiers) is horribly
>>     broken. My code editor looks as if my 1 year old drew with a red
...snip...
>
> My experience is the other way. Delphi (XE10) here, updates it live,
> while lazarus needs a recompile.

I would rather take _accurate information_ that all the false positives
that Delphi gives.

> My biggest beef with Delphi is that it is confused by having ..\xxxx paths
> in the search paths. They are interpreted as relative to the local

Yeah, I noticed that one too.


And more....

* Code navigation is disable when you are debugging!! WTF is the point
   of that!

* Code navigation via keyboard shortcuts (eg: Alt+<back>) sometimes take
   you to the strangest places in code - not where I was before.

* Refactoring: renaming identifiers - eg: a class name, doesn't update
   the comment markers for classes - so they will still have the old
   name, but the actual class name is updated. Little inconsistencies.

* Code Completion can't update changed parameters like Lazarus can.
   I didn't realize until now how often I rely on this when using
   Lazarus.

* Class Completion on overridden methods generate "inherited;" instead
   of "inherited <method_name>;". So with that omission, I can't code
   navigate (eg: Ctrl+LClick) to the parent [inherited] method.

* No support for global editor bookmarks. Ctrl+<num> only works for
   the current file. You can't have a bookmark in two or more files
   and think you can jump between them!


Wow, with every day I'm using Delphi this list of annoyances or bugs are
growing fast. And EMBT thinks they can still justify the HUGE price
tag?? What are Delphi Developers actually paying for? They should vote
with their wallet and stop upgrading until EMBT actually starts fixing
things.


So I'll reiterate.... Job well done to the FPC, Lazarus and MSEide
teams! You guys go far beyond what a commercial company can produce.

Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
On 20.07.2017 13:33, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:
> And EMBT thinks they can still justify the HUGE price tag?? What are
> Delphi Developers actually paying for? They should vote with their
> wallet and stop upgrading until EMBT actually starts fixing things.
>
> So I'll reiterate.... Job well done to the FPC, Lazarus and MSEide
> teams! You guys go far beyond what a commercial company can produce.

IMO we should give the Lazarus foundation more importance/advertisement.

I was already told by a 3rd party company that they ported their
applications to Lazarus and would like to pay monthly for keeping the
project going.

Ondrej
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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017, Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus wrote:

> On 20.07.2017 13:33, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:
>> And EMBT thinks they can still justify the HUGE price tag?? What are
>> Delphi Developers actually paying for? They should vote with their
>> wallet and stop upgrading until EMBT actually starts fixing things.
>>
>> So I'll reiterate.... Job well done to the FPC, Lazarus and MSEide
>> teams! You guys go far beyond what a commercial company can produce.
>
> IMO we should give the Lazarus foundation more importance/advertisement.

I'm definitely open for suggestions on this.

Michael.
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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On 2017-07-20 12:39, Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus wrote:
> IMO we should give the Lazarus foundation more importance/advertisement.


Definitely!


Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On 2017-07-20 12:33, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:
> And more....

;-)

[ I promise this will be the last]


* With Delphi, "deprecated" is not allowed on Properties.

* Delphi doesn't support user defined compiler hints and warnings
   like {$warning This is a user-defined warning}



Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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Am 20.07.2017 13:33 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus" <[hidden email]>:
> * Code navigation is disable when you are debugging!! WTF is the point
>   of that!

Delphi had always been a fancy text editor when debugging and probably always will be :P

Regards,
Sven


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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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Am 20.07.2017 14:44 schrieb "Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus" <[hidden email]>:
>
> On 2017-07-20 12:33, Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus wrote:
>>
>> And more....
>
>
> ;-)
>
> [ I promise this will be the last]
>
>
> * With Delphi, "deprecated" is not allowed on Properties.
>
> * Delphi doesn't support user defined compiler hints and warnings
>   like {$warning This is a user-defined warning}
>

The syntax in Delphi is "{$message [hint¦error¦warn¦fatal] 'text'}" which is also supported by FPC.

See also: http://docs.embarcadero.com/products/rad_studio/delphiAndcpp2009/HelpUpdate2/EN/html/devcommon/compdirsmessagedirective_xml.html

Regards,
Sven


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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On 2017-07-20 14:41, Sven Barth via Lazarus wrote:
> Delphi had always been a fancy text editor when debugging and probably
> always will be :P

I'm just shocked at how behind Delphi has become. FPC and Lazarus are so
far ahead in language features, target platforms, IDE features - they
have simply made Delphi obsolete. EMBT keeps buying other companies or
products and adding more junk into Delphi - instead of fixing what is
already there (basic IDE and language features). They should take a page
out of Canonical's playbook - remember the Ubuntu One Hundred Papercuts
initiative.

All FPC and Lazarus needs is better marketing for commercial entities.
Also trying to include FPC and Lazarus as standard in the RPi Linux
disto would also help kick-start its popularity.

Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On 2017-07-20 14:47, Sven Barth via Lazarus wrote:
> The syntax in Delphi is "{$message [hint¦error¦warn¦fatal] 'text'}" which
> is also supported by FPC.

Thanks Sven - literally 2 minutes ago I got notified via Google+ about
that directive.

Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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2017-07-20 15:54 GMT+02:00 Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus
<[hidden email]>:
> I'm just shocked at how behind Delphi has become. FPC and Lazarus are so far
> ahead in language features, target platforms, IDE features - they have
> simply made Delphi obsolete. EMBT keeps buying other companies or products
> and adding more junk into Delphi - instead of fixing what is already there
> (basic IDE and language features). They should take a page out of
> Canonical's playbook - remember the Ubuntu One Hundred Papercuts initiative.

You are right! Right now I'm working on project with over 1M lines of
source code and code completion is so slow! Even Ctrl+Click navigation
doesn't work, it jumps always to nonsense place. If I try to write
something, I still see blue circle indicating Delphi is thinking... .
Horrible experience. Core i5 with 16GB RAM and SSD disk. Also tons of
lines with red mark etc.

BTW Yesterday created packages of fpc 3.0.2 and Lazarus 1.6.4 for
Ubuntu 16.04 and 16.10. After 1.8 is released, I'll create packages as
well.
https://launchpad.net/~ok2cqr/+archive/ubuntu/lazarus

Petr

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On 2017-07-20 15:20, Petr Hložek via Lazarus wrote:
> Even Ctrl+Click navigation
> doesn't work, it jumps always to nonsense place.

Yeah, I get that all the time. I'm now using GExpert's add-on for its
"procedure list" and "grep search" features to get more accurate code
navigation in Delphi.

> Horrible experience. Core i5 with 16GB RAM and SSD disk. Also tons of
> lines with red mark etc.

I wonder if Lazarus IDE could use the Delphi dcc.exe command line
compiler? I guess not because the compiler settings are so different,
and Lazarus hides all those behind a GUI dialog. One might have better
luck using MSEide with dcc.exe because MSEide allows for much more
versatile compiler parameter configuration (nothing hidden behind a GUI
dialog). Umm, maybe something to try over the weekend.


Regards,
   Graeme

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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 15:31:34 +0100
Graeme Geldenhuys via Lazarus <[hidden email]> wrote:

>[...]
> I wonder if Lazarus IDE could use the Delphi dcc.exe command line
> compiler?

It can call it. For example as "execute before".

When dcc uses the same format "filename(line,column) message" the
IDE will jump to notes and errors.

The FPC command line parameters are different. You have to pass the
parameters by yourself. Some IDE macros might help, like the $Proj*
macros.

The IDE does not have a parser for the output. So it cannot fetch the
defines needed for parsing. You can use the Tools / Codetools defines
editor to set them.

Quickfixes might not recognize the message.

Mattias
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Re: [Lazarus] Congrats to the FPC/Lazarus projects - job well done!

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In reply to this post by Free Pascal - Lazarus mailing list
On Thu, Jul 20, 2017 at 2:39 PM, Ondrej Pokorny via Lazarus
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> IMO we should give the Lazarus foundation more importance/advertisement.

It should be the other way around. The foundation should advertise the
project it is associated with.
That is what foundations do with other projects.
Sometimes advertising requires money and the donations become handy.
So far the foundation has funded development of Pascal-Javascript converter.
There is no effort for PR or public visibility.
I did not get any answer from foundation members in Google+ forum
about this issue.
I still hope the PR work will come at some point.

Juha
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