[Lazarus] Android and QT ?

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[Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Razvan Adrian Bogdan
Hi,

I have just found this link http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/16733/necessitas-suite-qt-fuer-android-vorgestellt.html (German) speaking about this announcement http://groups.google.com/group/android-qt/browse_thread/thread/209edef7c5ceec8a for a unofficial community port of QT to Android.
I'm not sure how FPC and Lazarus use QT (is a C wrapper still required) but i think this would be a lot less work than doing all this stuff with FPC/Lazarus.

Razvan

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

zeljko
On Wednesday 23 of February 2011 19:27:16 Razvan Adrian Bogdan wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have just found this link
> http://www.pro-linux.de/news/1/16733/necessitas-suite-qt-fuer-android-vorge
> stellt.html(German) speaking about this announcement
> http://groups.google.com/group/android-qt/browse_thread/thread/209edef7c5ce
> ec8afor a unofficial community port of QT to Android.
> I'm not sure how FPC and Lazarus use QT (is a C wrapper still required) but
> i think this would be a lot less work than doing all this stuff with
> FPC/Lazarus.

Yes, C wrapper is needed, Qt is C++ lib.

zeljko

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Razvan Adrian Bogdan
On Thu, Feb 24, 2011 at 9:03 AM, zeljko <[hidden email]> wrote:
Yes, C wrapper is needed, Qt is C++ lib.

Could Lazarus use the same C wrapper it now uses on Linux since Android is mostly a Linux distro with different GUI ?

Razvan

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Den Jean
On Saturday 26 February 2011 18:37:00 Razvan Adrian Bogdan wrote:
> Could Lazarus use the same C wrapper it now uses on Linux since Android is
> mostly a Linux distro with different GUI ?
Most probably. But w/o an Android I have not tried yet.
Can you check out if you can already make a small app in Qt c++
(just a window and a button hooked to quit).
I do not know the state of android-lighthouse

Then you can see how much of the fpc binding compiles.
Compiling the binding has very similar requirements
as to compiling a Qt c++ library (which is what it is)


regards,

Den Jean

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Razvan Adrian Bogdan
On 02/26/2011 06:37 PM, Razvan Adrian Bogdan wrote:
> Android is mostly a Linux distro with different GUI ?
I could not resist:

Linux does not have a GUI. Same always is an add-on, so Android is Linux
Plus some GUI plus some other add-ons.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Michael Schnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Linux does not have a GUI. Same always is an add-on, so Android is Linux
> Plus some GUI plus some other add-ons.

The nasty surprise here is that Android implemented their GUI library
in Java, and users cannot run native executables.

I haven't checked how Qt works, but probably it writes their GUI with
OpenGL, which will make it badly integrated and bring all kinds of
problems.


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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Razvan Adrian Bogdan
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Michael Schnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Linux does not have a GUI. Same always is an add-on, so Android is Linux
> Plus some GUI plus some other add-ons.

The nasty surprise here is that Android implemented their GUI library
in Java, and users cannot run native executables.

I haven't checked how Qt works, but probably it writes their GUI with
OpenGL, which will make it badly integrated and bring all kinds of
problems.

Yes Linux the Kernel is just core stuff and of course non visual but most people refer to GNU/Linux+Qt/Gtk+Gnome/Kde/Lxde/Xpde/AnyWm, X11 itself is not mandatory but a good GUI framework is required for normal tasks such as reading a complex document or watching a movie. I'm not sure but last time i checked the graphics drivers used kernel modules but i could be wrong about this and we could consider graphics as part of the kernel but not an essential part, many people (including myself) just say Linux when they really mean their favorite distro Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse/Mandriva/Gentoo/Mint/....
 
They implemented QT using a service application that provides access to the GUI framework, it doesn't say anything about OpenGL and people seem to be happy about it.
It is important that it uses the same look and feel and is well integrated. I'm not sure how they wrote the Java GUI stuff, is it all written in Java or there are some C/C++ wrappers for Java that we could use ?
I know that there is a port of QT to NaCl and being Google technology it might get adopted faster i'm not really sure why NaCl isn't already on the Android platform because it was proposed for Chromium OS and the browser.

The problems Google and Oracle have could boost the adoption of other technologies such as C/C++, Python and Google Go (which is similar to Pascal and Ada but more C'ish, with support for clusters and multi-cpu).


Razvan

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

alex kovacic
-

This might be of interest to all LAZARUS developers/users. Take look at the LiMO foundation (consortium of companies for next generation of hand held devices)
http://www.limofoundation.org/en/what-is-the-platform.html
http://www.limofoundation.org/

The takeaway message from this is that EFL (enlightenment foundation libs) are the main libs proposed by the foundation to develop the next generation of hand held devices. What is disturbing is that lasarus/fpc has no bindings for these super fast libs. Samsung is using these libs and have devoted 4 full time developers and 2 part timers to use EFL libs for all of their electronic devices.

http://www.enlightenment.org/

Ubuntu is also using them for the notebook remix. And many others will follow and use the EFL in their projects. they have to be tried ? Try them and than make a critical analysis.(the EFL libs provide fast efficient (better design) optimised reusable code that other libs (GTK2 and QT) suffer from.

the EFL (e17) are at 1.0 and very stable.

bodhi linux is using E17 as their desktop shell (fast memmory efficient)

 http://www.bodhilinux.com/












On 2/03/2011 5:01 AM, Razvan Adrian Bogdan wrote:
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 12:35 PM, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 9:35 AM, Michael Schnell <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Linux does not have a GUI. Same always is an add-on, so Android is Linux
> Plus some GUI plus some other add-ons.

The nasty surprise here is that Android implemented their GUI library
in Java, and users cannot run native executables.

I haven't checked how Qt works, but probably it writes their GUI with
OpenGL, which will make it badly integrated and bring all kinds of
problems.

Yes Linux the Kernel is just core stuff and of course non visual but most people refer to GNU/Linux+Qt/Gtk+Gnome/Kde/Lxde/Xpde/AnyWm, X11 itself is not mandatory but a good GUI framework is required for normal tasks such as reading a complex document or watching a movie. I'm not sure but last time i checked the graphics drivers used kernel modules but i could be wrong about this and we could consider graphics as part of the kernel but not an essential part, many people (including myself) just say Linux when they really mean their favorite distro Ubuntu/Fedora/Suse/Mandriva/Gentoo/Mint/....
 
They implemented QT using a service application that provides access to the GUI framework, it doesn't say anything about OpenGL and people seem to be happy about it.
It is important that it uses the same look and feel and is well integrated. I'm not sure how they wrote the Java GUI stuff, is it all written in Java or there are some C/C++ wrappers for Java that we could use ?
I know that there is a port of QT to NaCl and being Google technology it might get adopted faster i'm not really sure why NaCl isn't already on the Android platform because it was proposed for Chromium OS and the browser.

The problems Google and Oracle have could boost the adoption of other technologies such as C/C++, Python and Google Go (which is similar to Pascal and Ada but more C'ish, with support for clusters and multi-cpu).


Razvan


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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Michael Van Canneyt


On Wed, 2 Mar 2011, alex kovacic wrote:

> -
>
> This might be of interest to all LAZARUS developers/users. Take look at the LiMO foundation (consortium of companies for next
> generation of hand held devices)
> http://www.limofoundation.org/en/what-is-the-platform.html
> http://www.limofoundation.org/
>
> The takeaway message from this is that EFL (enlightenment foundation libs) are the main libs proposed by the foundation to
> develop the next generation of hand held devices. What is disturbing is that lasarus/fpc has no bindings for these super fast
> libs.

Fast, maybe. But also primitive.
There are very few widgets available in elementary (no surprise, given the name ;) ).
It looks like it is indeed geared towards PDA/Mobiles. Lazarus would have to develop most other widgets by itself.
What also comes as a surprise is the very long list of dependencies. Compare with fpGUI, which only needs X11.

In each case, we'll certainly welcome header translations.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

alex kovacic
-

Interesting?
Yes elementary has a limited number of widgets (at the moment). ELF is
not "elementary"
roadmap for Elementary.
http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/Elementary

Some EFL features:
Each Can be installed independently
Each library can be used by itself

FpGUI (true - has low dependancies on other libs) has no future in the
embedded market and has some design flaws (graham is happy and that all
it mattaers). lcl-fpgui is not happening?




On 2/03/2011 9:55 AM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:

>
> On Wed, 2 Mar 2011, alex kovacic wrote:
>
>    
>> -
>>
>> This might be of interest to all LAZARUS developers/users. Take look at the LiMO foundation (consortium of companies for next
>> generation of hand held devices)
>> http://www.limofoundation.org/en/what-is-the-platform.html
>> http://www.limofoundation.org/
>>
>> The takeaway message from this is that EFL (enlightenment foundation libs) are the main libs proposed by the foundation to
>> develop the next generation of hand held devices. What is disturbing is that lasarus/fpc has no bindings for these super fast
>> libs.
>>      
> Fast, maybe. But also primitive.
> There are very few widgets available in elementary (no surprise, given the name ;) ).
> It looks like it is indeed geared towards PDA/Mobiles. Lazarus would have to develop most other widgets by itself.
> What also comes as a surprise is the very long list of dependencies. Compare with fpGUI, which only needs X11.
>
> In each case, we'll certainly welcome header translations.
>
> Michael.
>
> --
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>    


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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
On 03/01/2011 11:35 AM, Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho wrote:
>
> The nasty surprise here is that Android implemented their GUI library
> in Java, and users cannot run native executables.

(re-phrased previous mail)

AFAIK, at the beginning native application have been strictly
discouraged, but with a more recent version, they seem to be acceptable.
They seem to need some Java wrapper to be startable from the Android
user interface. I suppose to do a GUI for a native code Android
application there are several alternatives

  - do some callbacks to the Java environment that started the native
code to use the Java based GUI library

  - directly use the Framebuffer API (in Lazarus this would hopefully be
possible some day using the fpGUI Widget Type, as <AFAIK> Graeme is
planning to implement a Fframebuffer interface for same, additionally to
the already existing X interface

  - install QT (as the OP in this thread suggested).

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Sven Barth
In reply to this post by Razvan Adrian Bogdan
Am 01.03.2011 19:01, schrieb Razvan Adrian Bogdan:
> Yes Linux the Kernel is just core stuff and of course non visual but
> most people refer to GNU/Linux+Qt/Gtk+Gnome/Kde/Lxde/Xpde/AnyWm, X11
> itself is not mandatory but a good GUI framework is required for normal
> tasks such as reading a complex document or watching a movie.

I don't need to have X11 or and GUI framework running to watch a
movie... mplayer and a framebuffer are sufficient. :D

Regards,
Sven

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by alex kovacic

>
> On 2/03/2011 5:01 AM, Razvan Adrian Bogdan wrote:
>>  we could consider graphics as part of the kernel but not an
>> essential part,

IMHO this is a (quite common) miss-conception. There are millions of
embedded devices that run Linux without any graphics, (here, the
hardware does not provide graphics at all, and often not even a
character based display). With servers there is no need to activate the
graphic stuff - even if running on a PC that does have graphics
hardware. So you can free a lot RAM for more useful stuff.

By definition "Linux" is just the Kernel. The graphics hardware of
course is accessed by a dedicated Kernel-mode driver (usually a loadable
module), providing a "frame buffer" interface to the userland software.
AFAIK, the X-Server (if used) is just a user land program, accessed by
some kind of byte stream (pipe) by the user land programs that want to
create a GUI.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Michael Schnell
In reply to this post by Michael Van Canneyt
On 03/01/2011 11:55 PM, Michael Van Canneyt wrote:
>
>
>
> It looks like it is indeed geared towards PDA/Mobiles. Lazarus would
> have to develop most other widgets by itself.
This is what fpGUI is about.
> What also comes as a surprise is the very long list of dependencies.
> Compare with fpGUI, which only needs X11.
Hopefully a future fpGUI will be able to use the framebuffer API if X11
is not available.

-Michael

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by alex kovacic
Op 2011-03-02 02:07, alex kovacic het geskryf:
>
> FpGUI (true - has low dependancies on other libs) has no future in the
> embedded market and has some design flaws

What design flaws?

NOTE: I'm not referring to lcl-fpgui, but rather the real fpGUI Toolkit.



Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Graeme Geldenhuys
In reply to this post by Michael Schnell
Op 2011-03-02 11:07, Michael Schnell het geskryf:
>> It looks like it is indeed geared towards PDA/Mobiles. Lazarus would
>> have to develop most other widgets by itself.
> This is what fpGUI is about.

Yes, that is one of its uses. There are quite a few developers I know of
that use fpGUI successfully on Embedded Linux devices, and on some
Windows CE devices.


> Hopefully a future fpGUI will be able to use the framebuffer API if X11
> is not available.

You can count on that! With my frustration ever growing over the bad X11
performance, the Linux Framebuffer support will come sooner rather than
later. I'm playing around with Haiku too. My 7 year old laptop only uses
the VESA driver in Haiku, yet it has mindblowing fast graphics and mouse
cursor-to-window edge lag while resizing is near zero (same for Windows
and MacOS). Linux desktop graphics on that same system (and any other
system) is appalling! Compiz and wobble windows etc are just trying to
detract user from that fact.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

--
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http://fpgui.sourceforge.net/


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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
In reply to this post by Razvan Adrian Bogdan
2011/3/1 Razvan Adrian Bogdan <[hidden email]>:
> They implemented QT using a service application that provides access to the
> GUI framework, it doesn't say anything about OpenGL and people seem to be
> happy about it.

If you search more deeply, Qt for Android depends on OpenGL.

> It is important that it uses the same look and feel and is well integrated.

Exactly what Qt won't be. Qt is a custom drawn toolkit. It could never
use the native widgets because it doesn't match it's internal
architecture.

> I'm not sure how they wrote the Java GUI stuff, is it all written in Java or
> there are some C/C++ wrappers for Java that we could use ?

There are no such generic wrappers, you have to write them yourself
for each program.

For Pascal I am writing generic wrappers to communicate with Java.

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

Felipe Monteiro de Carvalho
On Wed, Mar 2, 2011 at 1:49 PM, Razvan Adrian Bogdan
<[hidden email]> wrote:
> I was looking at this: "The ONLY problem this plugin has,
> is that  it doesn't support hardware acceleration so no OpenGL. For
> OpenGL I need to resurrect "mw" plugins, I'll do it after sw plugin
> will be production stable. "

Maybe they use the new Surface API, but that only appeared in Android
2.3. It offers a raw surface, no widgets.

> I have high hopes for QT, it's the best integrated CrossPlatform toolkit, i
> have seen GTK and it makes me feel that it was made by people that do not
> appreciate aesthetics so the source code looks hard to read.
> Qt had one problem with the GPL licensing, now it's also LGPL so the problem
> is gone.

I too like Qt and fpGUI, so maybe my mails were sounding like if I
think it is a bad idea to invest in checking how they can work in
Android, it's not the case.

The thing is that I work with Android Programming so I know that
custom drawn programs suffer from major integration issues in android
which can be solved if you have a company with dozens of developers
working full time on that and people testing all of the 50+ most
important smartphones, tablets, etc, but a small team (or just 1 guy
alone) will have a very hard time keeping up. Every new phone that
comes in might bream custom drawn apps or their integration to the OS
in general and so many things are configurable. And everything is
tested against the standard Java widgets, not against custom drawn
apps.

But, despite these issues, Qt or fpGUI might be the only viable
solutions for porting Lazarus to Android.

My bindings which connect Pascal to the Android API (which I am
calling Android4Pascal) are more viable for standalone programs then
for the LCL.

> The problems appear when trying to mimic the way native widgets work on
> each platform such as pulsing buttons and things like that
> but if browsers can do it, so can FPGui.

Actually, many browsers use native widgets. Desktop browsers use
native widgets more often then mobile browsers, for the reason that we
already know: Lack of trust in the stability and durability of mobile
APIs. Many mobile OSes have died over the years.

> I was thinking how did Google do it, did they write the GUI core in C/C++
> and created wrappers so that Java may use them or did they write the GUI in
> Java and now people have to find ways to make Java respond to native calls
> through indirect wrappers and service applications.

Ah, I see. I don't know, but I think that the widget drawing and
handling code is in Java, otherwise they would have made the API
public.

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Re: [Lazarus] Android and QT ?

alex kovacic
In reply to this post by Graeme Geldenhuys
-

On 2/03/2011 8:29 PM, Graeme Geldenhuys wrote:

> Op 2011-03-02 11:07, Michael Schnell het geskryf:
>    
>>> It looks like it is indeed geared towards PDA/Mobiles. Lazarus would
>>> have to develop most other widgets by itself.
>>>        
>> This is what fpGUI is about.
>>      
> Yes, that is one of its uses. There are quite a few developers I know of
> that use fpGUI successfully on Embedded Linux devices, and on some
> Windows CE devices.
>
>
>    
>> Hopefully a future fpGUI will be able to use the framebuffer API if X11
>> is not available.
>>      
> You can count on that! With my frustration ever growing over the bad X11
> performance, the Linux Framebuffer support will come sooner rather than
> later. I'm playing around with Haiku too. My 7 year old laptop only uses
> the VESA driver in Haiku, yet it has mindblowing fast graphics and mouse
> cursor-to-window edge lag while resizing is near zero (same for Windows
> and MacOS). Linux desktop graphics on that same system (and any other
> system) is appalling! Compiz and wobble windows etc are just trying to
> detract user from that fact.
>
>
> Regards,
>    - Graeme -
>
>    

Linux desktop graphics on that same system (and any other
system) is appalling! Compiz and wobble windows etc are just trying to
detract user from that fact.

Use e17 desktop environment you might change your mind about linux
desktop performances?

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