[Lazarus] An online package manager

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[Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
[Cross posted on forum so if you want answer there :
http://forum.lazarus.freepascal.org/index.php/topic,29284.0.html]
 
Hi,
 
I saw Embarcadero's Getit that introduced in Delphi XE8 and I think it can help Lazarus and it's community very well.
As you know these days more IDE's make this systems and its good,collecting all packages and make it easy to use like a store.
Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on this subject? If yes I want to help.
 
Regards,
Ara
 
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Graeme Geldenhuys-3
On 2015-08-08 14:27, Aradeonas wrote:
> Is there any work on this subject until now

Yes, the Free Pascal project has had something like that for years,
called fppkg. Unfortunately there is only 3 or so packages in there (at
least the last time I checked, some 3 years ago), and they don't seem to
accept more, or they are waiting for something - but I'm not sure what
exactly. The FPC team also don't seem to promote it at all.

Somebody also created a LCL based gui-frontend to it, but again I have
no idea who is maintaining the server that fppkg talks to, or how to
actually submit packages into it.

[~]$ fppkg list
Name                 Installed        Available
embweb               -                0.9.1-968
gecko                -                2.9.0-3
jquery               -                0.9.0-842
lazmkunit            -                0.9.3-1
lnet                 -                0.6.6-2606
webdesign            -                0.9.0-906

Ah, now there are 5 packages. :)

Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
It seems there is need for a new one.If any one want to help or have a
point for me tell me so I consider it.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Graeme Geldenhuys-3
On 2015-08-08 21:22, Aradeonas wrote:
> It seems there is need for a new one.

I don't think there is technically anything wrong with fppkg that a new
one is needed. The FPC team simply needs to be more forthcoming about it
and let developers know if and how they can submit new packages. I have
quite a few I would like to add to it.

But yes, if the FPC team are not interested in running such a package
system, then setting up a new server is probably the way to go. I
haven't looked, but I'm pretty sure the fppkg code is all open source
too, so making it point to a different location or making it
configurable or something should be easily doable.

Regards,
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
Probably if I understand it I will use it or maybe make a new one on it.
As Marco always said if you want it so make it your self and the team
are very busy so id I can I will,but I should investigate on it first.
So as I said if any one of team member or others have point before I
make it please say so I dont go the wrong way or consider what they
say.Including you dear Graeme.


Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Michael Van Canneyt


On Sat, 8 Aug 2015, Aradeonas wrote:

> Probably if I understand it I will use it or maybe make a new one on it.
> As Marco always said if you want it so make it your self and the team
> are very busy so id I can I will,but I should investigate on it first.
> So as I said if any one of team member or others have point before I
> make it please say so I dont go the wrong way or consider what they
> say.Including you dear Graeme.

Fppkg is working fine. Technically it is OK.
It is well integrated with fpmake (as intended).

What is missing is manpower to set up a website, repository and whatnot.

If you want to help set up a repository, website for submissions and whatnot,
that would be very much appreciated.

Michael.

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
Ok I will read more about it.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Juha Manninen
In reply to this post by aradeonas
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Aradeonas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on this
> subject? If yes I want to help.

The fppkg is for FPC packages. It does not work with Lazarus packages.
There is a GUI for fppkg in Lazarus named LazarusPackageManager but it
is broken. It should be fixed or removed.

We need a similar system for Lazarus packages and maybe other Lazarus resources.
The idea is not new and there is even some skeleton code for it in
package "Aarre". Nothing functional yet unfortunately.

Studying this issue has been on my ToDo list for long. Some open questions :

1. How much synergy with fppkg should it have? Can it share code?

2. Meta-package file format? I guess it should be a GZip package
containing Lazarus package sources + other metadata. What other
resources should be supported? More metadata is needed.

3. Support for user comments and votes for the packages. The GUI in
Lazarus must support adding and viewing them.

4. List of servers. Initially it should be CCR but can be extended.
The ideal situation is that all package authors provide such
meta-packages somewhere.

5. A website. Is it needed to find the packages and advertise them?
This may have synergy with fppkg again.

If you are serious about this project, you should study the issue and
make a plan with some diagrams even.
I believe a SVN branch in Lazarus repo can be organized if needed.
If fppkg code must be refactored and then reused, it may be easier to
first fork it and then later offer to FPC project as a patch.

Regards,
Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Kostas Michalopoulos
I would make this more complicated than absolutely necessary.

lpk files have version and dependency information. AFAIK that is all you need to get a minimum working package manager using a central repository although i'd like to see multiple repositories that provide packages (f.e. personally i'd prefer to host my own packages on my server).

IMO what needs to be done is quite simple:

 1. Have the downloadable packages be a zip file (tons of tools can make them, Lazarus can read them, etc) with the package directory as it should be after installation, with the lpk and all.
 2. Once a package is uploaded to a repository, it should extract the lpk file so that it can show information about the package in a web view and...
 3.  Lazarus can download a list of available packages from a repository and when requested, it will download the lpk file to show the details. Once the user decides to download a package, the full zip is downloaded with the dependencies (if they are not already installed) and have them extracted in some place (user designated or just C:\lazarus\downloaded or something like that) and the lpk files installed.
 4. Done. Restart Lazarus for the new stuff to take effect.

I know that there might be some minor issues or things people would like (like multiple lpk files or even separate metadata file, a format with better compression, a better gui, etc) but really those can be done later and IMO the majority of packages will work just fine with this setup. The other things like comments, rating, etc can also be done later.

I think that if something is going to be done, it needs to be the minimal work that needs to get things going because otherwise, it will get stalled (and it has been a while I hear about an online package installer :-P).


On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Juha Manninen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Aradeonas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on this
> subject? If yes I want to help.

The fppkg is for FPC packages. It does not work with Lazarus packages.
There is a GUI for fppkg in Lazarus named LazarusPackageManager but it
is broken. It should be fixed or removed.

We need a similar system for Lazarus packages and maybe other Lazarus resources.
The idea is not new and there is even some skeleton code for it in
package "Aarre". Nothing functional yet unfortunately.

Studying this issue has been on my ToDo list for long. Some open questions :

1. How much synergy with fppkg should it have? Can it share code?

2. Meta-package file format? I guess it should be a GZip package
containing Lazarus package sources + other metadata. What other
resources should be supported? More metadata is needed.

3. Support for user comments and votes for the packages. The GUI in
Lazarus must support adding and viewing them.

4. List of servers. Initially it should be CCR but can be extended.
The ideal situation is that all package authors provide such
meta-packages somewhere.

5. A website. Is it needed to find the packages and advertise them?
This may have synergy with fppkg again.

If you are serious about this project, you should study the issue and
make a plan with some diagrams even.
I believe a SVN branch in Lazarus repo can be organized if needed.
If fppkg code must be refactored and then reused, it may be easier to
first fork it and then later offer to FPC project as a patch.

Regards,
Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Kostas Michalopoulos
Of course I meant that I would *NOT* make this more complicated than necessary...

On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 3:47 AM, Kostas Michalopoulos <[hidden email]> wrote:
I would make this more complicated than absolutely necessary.

lpk files have version and dependency information. AFAIK that is all you need to get a minimum working package manager using a central repository although i'd like to see multiple repositories that provide packages (f.e. personally i'd prefer to host my own packages on my server).

IMO what needs to be done is quite simple:

 1. Have the downloadable packages be a zip file (tons of tools can make them, Lazarus can read them, etc) with the package directory as it should be after installation, with the lpk and all.
 2. Once a package is uploaded to a repository, it should extract the lpk file so that it can show information about the package in a web view and...
 3.  Lazarus can download a list of available packages from a repository and when requested, it will download the lpk file to show the details. Once the user decides to download a package, the full zip is downloaded with the dependencies (if they are not already installed) and have them extracted in some place (user designated or just C:\lazarus\downloaded or something like that) and the lpk files installed.
 4. Done. Restart Lazarus for the new stuff to take effect.

I know that there might be some minor issues or things people would like (like multiple lpk files or even separate metadata file, a format with better compression, a better gui, etc) but really those can be done later and IMO the majority of packages will work just fine with this setup. The other things like comments, rating, etc can also be done later.

I think that if something is going to be done, it needs to be the minimal work that needs to get things going because otherwise, it will get stalled (and it has been a while I hear about an online package installer :-P).


On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Juha Manninen <[hidden email]> wrote:
On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Aradeonas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on this
> subject? If yes I want to help.

The fppkg is for FPC packages. It does not work with Lazarus packages.
There is a GUI for fppkg in Lazarus named LazarusPackageManager but it
is broken. It should be fixed or removed.

We need a similar system for Lazarus packages and maybe other Lazarus resources.
The idea is not new and there is even some skeleton code for it in
package "Aarre". Nothing functional yet unfortunately.

Studying this issue has been on my ToDo list for long. Some open questions :

1. How much synergy with fppkg should it have? Can it share code?

2. Meta-package file format? I guess it should be a GZip package
containing Lazarus package sources + other metadata. What other
resources should be supported? More metadata is needed.

3. Support for user comments and votes for the packages. The GUI in
Lazarus must support adding and viewing them.

4. List of servers. Initially it should be CCR but can be extended.
The ideal situation is that all package authors provide such
meta-packages somewhere.

5. A website. Is it needed to find the packages and advertise them?
This may have synergy with fppkg again.

If you are serious about this project, you should study the issue and
make a plan with some diagrams even.
I believe a SVN branch in Lazarus repo can be organized if needed.
If fppkg code must be refactored and then reused, it may be easier to
first fork it and then later offer to FPC project as a patch.

Regards,
Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
Thank you Kostas yes it will begin simple but it should be ready for all the options.
Juha yes you are right and I will get your help ;)
 
Regards,
Ara
 
 
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Juha Manninen
On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Aradeonas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Thank you Kostas yes it will begin simple but it should be ready for all the
> options.
> Juha yes you are right and I will get your help ;)

Yes, I also want to see this feature soon.

This process may have unexpected problems which are already solved in fppkg.
That's why I think fppkg should be studied well.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
Me too.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Juha Manninen
It may be rather easy using HTTP or FTP download like fppkg is doing.
Some of its code can be used.
The package list must be one file (just like fppkg uses) to minimize
server load.
The package format cannot be shared with fppkg though.

I don't think the server load will be a problem. The packages contain
only textual source files and are compressed. They will be small
enough.

Allowing users to comment and rate the packages may be the most
difficult part but it is not needed initially. It will require
authentication and dealing with malicious attacks and whatever.
Read-only is easy.

Aradeonas, if you start to implement this, you should reuse the fppkg
code as much as possible. The design looks good.
The fpmake related stuff and the package format cannot be reused.
Also the client must be a Lazarus IDE package with a nice GUI instead
of a cmd line program.
Looking good so far ...

Regards,
Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Luiz Americo Pereira Camara
In reply to this post by Kostas Michalopoulos


Em 08/08/2015 21:49, "Kostas Michalopoulos" <[hidden email]> escreveu:
>
> I would make this more complicated than absolutely necessary.
>
> lpk files have version and dependency information. AFAIK that is all you need to get a minimum working package manager using a central repository although i'd like to see multiple repositories that provide packages (f.e. personally i'd prefer to host my own packages on my server).
>
> IMO what needs to be done is quite simple:
>
>  1. Have the downloadable packages be a zip file (tons of tools can make them, Lazarus can read them, etc) with the package directory as it should be after installation, with the lpk and all.

I would make even simpler by not requiring to zip and upload to a server the package and corresponding files. I would download from the SCM ( git/svn) directly, like bower does. The data necessary to register the package would be name, description, dependencies, the SCM type, and the repository URL.

Luiz

>  2. Once a package is uploaded to a repository, it should extract the lpk file so that it can show information about the package in a web view and...
>  3.  Lazarus can download a list of available packages from a repository and when requested, it will download the lpk file to show the details. Once the user decides to download a package, the full zip is downloaded with the dependencies (if they are not already installed) and have them extracted in some place (user designated or just C:\lazarus\downloaded or something like that) and the lpk files installed.
>  4. Done. Restart Lazarus for the new stuff to take effect.
>
> I know that there might be some minor issues or things people would like (like multiple lpk files or even separate metadata file, a format with better compression, a better gui, etc) but really those can be done later and IMO the majority of packages will work just fine with this setup. The other things like comments, rating, etc can also be done later.
>
> I think that if something is going to be done, it needs to be the minimal work that needs to get things going because otherwise, it will get stalled (and it has been a while I hear about an online package installer :-P).
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 2:11 AM, Juha Manninen <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 4:27 PM, Aradeonas <[hidden email]> wrote:
>> > Is there any work on this subject until now or any one like to work on this
>> > subject? If yes I want to help.
>>
>> The fppkg is for FPC packages. It does not work with Lazarus packages.
>> There is a GUI for fppkg in Lazarus named LazarusPackageManager but it
>> is broken. It should be fixed or removed.
>>
>> We need a similar system for Lazarus packages and maybe other Lazarus resources.
>> The idea is not new and there is even some skeleton code for it in
>> package "Aarre". Nothing functional yet unfortunately.
>>
>> Studying this issue has been on my ToDo list for long. Some open questions :
>>
>> 1. How much synergy with fppkg should it have? Can it share code?
>>
>> 2. Meta-package file format? I guess it should be a GZip package
>> containing Lazarus package sources + other metadata. What other
>> resources should be supported? More metadata is needed.
>>
>> 3. Support for user comments and votes for the packages. The GUI in
>> Lazarus must support adding and viewing them.
>>
>> 4. List of servers. Initially it should be CCR but can be extended.
>> The ideal situation is that all package authors provide such
>> meta-packages somewhere.
>>
>> 5. A website. Is it needed to find the packages and advertise them?
>> This may have synergy with fppkg again.
>>
>> If you are serious about this project, you should study the issue and
>> make a plan with some diagrams even.
>> I believe a SVN branch in Lazarus repo can be organized if needed.
>> If fppkg code must be refactored and then reused, it may be easier to
>> first fork it and then later offer to FPC project as a patch.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Juha
>>
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>
>
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
Im agree with Luiz,Its better to have them in a server as a pack,because as you (Juha) said we dont want do any force dependency on anything like Git or Github so we can cache the packages in a server as a zip but for a job like this I want to read previous and others work completely and make a stable structure for future but we should use previous works.
 
Regards,
Ara
 
 
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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Graeme Geldenhuys-3
In reply to this post by Luiz Americo Pereira Camara
On 2015-08-09 23:30, luiz americo pereira camara wrote:
> I would download from the SCM (
> git/svn) directly, like bower does. The data necessary to register the
> package would be name, description, dependencies, the SCM type, and the
> repository URL.

I would suggest the same idea. Take a look at how the FreeBSD "ports"
system works. Much can be learned from that.

For those that don't know FreeBSD ports system, here is a short explanation:

* The ports information lives in a directory hierarchy. The first level
  defines the group in which each packages belongs: eg: devel, editors,
  games, audio etc. Then inside those you have a directory for each
  package.

* Each package directory contains a couple of files and one "files"
  directory:
   - distinfo:  lists the source archive name, its size and SHA256
                checksum value
   - Makefile:  describes the version number of the package, category
                the package belongs too, where the port can be
                downloaded from (straight from SF.net, Github etc),
                package maintainer's email address, dependencies
                and compiler options (user configurable at build time).
   - pkg-descr: full multi-line description of the package
   - pkg-plist: full list of installed files (including path
                information)
   - files/     any small patches that get applied to the unpacked
                source archive before it gets compiled.
   
The whole "ports" directory hierarchy lives in a code repository. The
end-user (developer in this case) can update their local copy from time
to time. Package source code (release archives) get downloaded directly
from each projects original location on SF.net, Github, etc. Unpacking
the source archive for compilation happens in a temp directory inside
each package directory in the ports tree. Packages can also be marked as
Broken or Suspended for various reasons (eg: original source archive is
not available for download any more)

For Lazarus, the ports repository is the only "bandwidth" the Lazarus
server will use. A gui front-end can be written to update and search the
local ports tree.

A star rating system (optional) would probably need to be implemented at
the GUI front-end level, and could submit a rating via some web service.
Login could be made optional, but a simple registration will most likely
reduce "spam" and allow to keep track of who made ratings against what
packages.


Regards,
  - Graeme -

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
Thank you for the explanation Graeme.
I think its better to archive each version in Lazarus host or a central
is better way but get them when updated from the source so prevent
problems like availability , think as as a sync central, because as I
saw always be here and stable is a major points of Lazarus and one of
the reason I like it so much,it always there for you ;) .
About users probably we can use forum users info but let see what
happen.

The most important part is it make easy to use packages and sharing them
so increase the power of community and get more attention on each other
work and attract new users to this brilliant space ;)

I'm researching about all same services ,next make plan and structure
after reading exist codes and then invite every people that want work on
some part of this if they want.

For now I'm interested in community opinions so keep them in mind while
the researching and planning.

Regards,
Ara


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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

Juha Manninen
In reply to this post by aradeonas
On Mon, Aug 10, 2015 at 8:52 AM, Aradeonas <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Im agree with Luiz,Its better to have them in a server as a pack,

No, Luiz suggested the opposite, to download from SCM directly without
any packs.
I don't know why people are obsessed with SCM tools for a feature that
does not need them and certainly should not depend on them.

> because as you (Juha) said we dont want do any force dependency on
> anything like Git or Github so we can cache the packages in a server as a zip
> [...]

Dependency on Github web site / service is OK.
Dependency on Git tool for all Lazarus users in a no-go.

In fact I like the FreeBSD ports system. Does it depend on SCM tools
or does it download some ready made Zip packages from GitHub and other
sites?
Both ways have a problem : It is easy to get only the latest version
of a package. Projects can depend on old versions, too.

Anyway we should add support for different download sites for the
Lazarus packages, in the spirit of FreeBSD ports.
Maybe like this :

Phase 1 :
Support zipped meta-packages but allow to download them from any URL
(HTTP or FTP).
The difference to Kostas' minimal design is that the Lazarus .lpk
files are not needed separately. The client can extract them and check
dependencies. Having dependency info in other places would be
duplicate info.
A list of available packages must be in one file. Doing a FTP
directory listing eats resources.
Note: no server side SW is needed.

Phase 2 :
Support also downloading from sites hosting code (SF, GitHub etc.)
when they provide direct download.
Using the SCM tools directly cannot be supported because we cannot
impose such a dependency for the cross-platform Lazarus.
Still no server side SW is needed.

Phase 3 :
Support user rating and comments for packages.
Support using the SCM tools from server. When a download URL refers to
a SCM repo, the server SW loads the sources and zips a meta-package.
Clients can use that package directly.
Server side SW is needed obviously.

Juha

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Re: [Lazarus] An online package manager

aradeonas
I read it wrongly,No I dont like getting directly because of many
reasons like their services limit and the soul of "no force dependency
on others" of FPC and Lazarus.

I think we are the same page.

Its good to have a server that get around packages together from
supported sources and  so on.
There is one tiny problem that keep packages uptodate, we can sync as
package maintainer update it in a client tools or we can sync it in a
cycle . not decided yet.

Regards,
Ara


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